Well...

alohafri wrote:I have to say this was all done for political theater. Why didn't Feinstein ask for a closed session when she wanted to introduce this letter? She's fighting for her political life in California. The California Democrats refused to endorse her, endorsing her opponent instead. Could this have been a last ditch effort on her part to change that?

blondy28 wrote:

alohafri wrote:I have to say this was all done for political theater. Why didn't Feinstein ask for a closed session when she wanted to introduce this letter? She's fighting for her political life in California. The California Democrats refused to endorse her, endorsing her opponent instead. Could this have been a last ditch effort on her part to change that?

I can't say whether or not it was done for political theater, but I can tell you that if it were me, I wouldn't trust the Republicans.  I think if introduced in closed session, they would work behind the scenes to figure out how to make sure it didn't get in the way of the confirmation, rather than actually work to find out the facts.

SoxIlliniRob wrote:My overall take on this will probably come as a bit of a surprise.  While I think this probably occurred just about exactly as she notes it, I suspect he always considered that moment (assuming he remembers it) to be harmless, drunken silly time.  Most likely he knows it occurred, but isn't going to allow it to blow up his nomination when he always thought of it as silly fun.  I suspect he didn't actually plan to rape her.  Her point about the guys laughing hysterically during the attack leads me to view it less as sexual and/or violent, and more as just stupid assed teen behavior.  

I don't mean to justify it.  I didn't do shit like that, and wouldn't have if given the chance.  But I can see the fine line whereby some believe this is childish shit unworthy of killing a career or ruining his nomination.  I think the guy is a bit of a shit.  It'd be great if he doesn't make it and they find someone new, but I suspect that the GOP senators are concluding that it sounds like teen stupidity gone off the rails and I believe he'll be confirmed.

jaywit wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:My overall take on this will probably come as a bit of a surprise.  While I think this probably occurred just about exactly as she notes it, I suspect he always considered that moment (assuming he remembers it) to be harmless, drunken silly time.  Most likely he knows it occurred, but isn't going to allow it to blow up his nomination when he always thought of it as silly fun.  I suspect he didn't actually plan to rape her.  Her point about the guys laughing hysterically during the attack leads me to view it less as sexual and/or violent, and more as just stupid assed teen behavior.  

I don't mean to justify it.  I didn't do shit like that, and wouldn't have if given the chance.  But I can see the fine line whereby some believe this is childish shit unworthy of killing a career or ruining his nomination.  I think the guy is a bit of a shit.  It'd be great if he doesn't make it and they find someone new, but I suspect that the GOP senators are concluding that it sounds like teen stupidity gone off the rails and I believe he'll be confirmed.

I watched opening statements of both (as well as much of the questioning of both) and found both equally compelling.  I truly believe in their hearts both are telling the truth.  One of the two's memory is failing them and I have to trust the non-drinker over the drinker.  I'm glad an investigation has been ordered.



I didn't get the push by the democrats to force Kavanaugh to ask for an FBI investigation.  I'm not sure why he didn't respond with "...it's not my place to ask for an FBI investigation, it's the president's.  If he sees fit to order an investigation, I will fully support it."  Asking an accused person to pursue an investigation of himself is a little crazy, don't you think?

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

jaywit wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:My overall take on this will probably come as a bit of a surprise.  While I think this probably occurred just about exactly as she notes it, I suspect he always considered that moment (assuming he remembers it) to be harmless, drunken silly time.  Most likely he knows it occurred, but isn't going to allow it to blow up his nomination when he always thought of it as silly fun.  I suspect he didn't actually plan to rape her.  Her point about the guys laughing hysterically during the attack leads me to view it less as sexual and/or violent, and more as just stupid assed teen behavior.  

I don't mean to justify it.  I didn't do shit like that, and wouldn't have if given the chance.  But I can see the fine line whereby some believe this is childish shit unworthy of killing a career or ruining his nomination.  I think the guy is a bit of a shit.  It'd be great if he doesn't make it and they find someone new, but I suspect that the GOP senators are concluding that it sounds like teen stupidity gone off the rails and I believe he'll be confirmed.

I watched opening statements of both (as well as much of the questioning of both) and found both equally compelling.  I truly believe in their hearts both are telling the truth.  One of the two's memory is failing them and I have to trust the non-drinker over the drinker.  I'm glad an investigation has been ordered.



I didn't get the push by the democrats to force Kavanaugh to ask for an FBI investigation.  I'm not sure why he didn't respond with "...it's not my place to ask for an FBI investigation, it's the president's.  If he sees fit to order an investigation, I will fully support it."  Asking an accused person to pursue an investigation of himself is a little crazy, don't you think?

No.  I don't think it's crazy.  If you accuse me of something terrible and I know I'm innocent and that interviewing my network of friends and relatives will show that, then sign me up for the FBI investigation.  I think he's fearful that such an investigation will prove he was at the party/gathering in question.  I mentioned earlier that I believe he probably didn't ever mean to try raping the girl.  I suspect he did as accused, but did so thinking he was playing harmless grabass and having a good time.  Basically, a difference in the perceptions of the accuser and the supposed attacker.  

Kavanaugh knows absolutely damn well that the GOP wants no investigation in fine details, so it's easy for him to say "whatever the committee wants...." because he knows they want NO investigation.  It'll take time.  It might find dirt.  It could mean they need to find a new judge and time is of the essence right now.  I believe they may find that his little calendar entry noting "Skis at Billi's house with Judge, PJ, etc"  will be brewskis at Billi's house and maybe that's the house in question.  Ford says PJ and Judge were there.  I suspect it'll also find others that corroborate that he was a blackout drunk, which makes him a perjurer.  IN fact, I believe he told a bunch of obvious lies on the stand.  Little lies, mind you, such as calling Devil's Triangle a drinking game (gimme a fucking break) and claiming that the "Renata alumnus" claims were just a salute to her, when it's clear it's not.  Or claiming he never got super drunk when his best buddy wrote a book stating that he'd gotten drunk, puked in his car and passed out.  Granted, those aren't the kinds of lies under oath that make me scream for jail time.  It's the kind of lie like Clinton claiming he didn't boink around with Monica.  I'm not losing sleep about him acting like a 17 yr old in his yearbook when he was a 17 yr old.  I'm more concerned about the obvious lying about stupid shit when he could just say "Yeah, I was a dumb ass teen that did dumb ass and thoughtless shit!  And then I went to college and learned what a dumb ass I was being and became a much better person and that's the person you see now."  95% of Americans could get down and on a level with that kind of statement.  I could.  

Lastly, I thought his time on the stand was really pretty unhinged at points, and reeked of a bad temperament for that kind of job.  Sneering.  Yelling.  Crying.  Very partisan statements about Clinton and Trump.  Harassing the senators even over pretty innocuous questions about his drinking in high school.  Klobuchar couldn't have been more professional with him and he acted like a child to her.  I believe Durbin made him look VERY nervous and like a terrible witness.  He couldn't give a straight answer to anyone.  Asked Klobuchar how much she drinks.  He was flat out awful.  If people want to call this a Dem hit job then why did no such thing happen during Gorsuch?  If this is a hit job, why was Ford trying to get the word out about Kavanaugh BEFORE he was nominated by Trump?

I walked away from that hearing believing he was a poor candidate NOT because of what Dr. Ford said, but because of how he carried himself.  He was unhinged.  Her testimony made me feel sorry for her, but also made me further believe that his actions toward her were probably believed by him to have been harmless drunken grab ass time.  I'll bet he never thought a second time about until it was brought up a week ago.

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

jaywit wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:My overall take on this will probably come as a bit of a surprise.  While I think this probably occurred just about exactly as she notes it, I suspect he always considered that moment (assuming he remembers it) to be harmless, drunken silly time.  Most likely he knows it occurred, but isn't going to allow it to blow up his nomination when he always thought of it as silly fun.  I suspect he didn't actually plan to rape her.  Her point about the guys laughing hysterically during the attack leads me to view it less as sexual and/or violent, and more as just stupid assed teen behavior.  

I don't mean to justify it.  I didn't do shit like that, and wouldn't have if given the chance.  But I can see the fine line whereby some believe this is childish shit unworthy of killing a career or ruining his nomination.  I think the guy is a bit of a shit.  It'd be great if he doesn't make it and they find someone new, but I suspect that the GOP senators are concluding that it sounds like teen stupidity gone off the rails and I believe he'll be confirmed.

I watched opening statements of both (as well as much of the questioning of both) and found both equally compelling.  I truly believe in their hearts both are telling the truth.  One of the two's memory is failing them and I have to trust the non-drinker over the drinker.  I'm glad an investigation has been ordered.



I didn't get the push by the democrats to force Kavanaugh to ask for an FBI investigation.  I'm not sure why he didn't respond with "...it's not my place to ask for an FBI investigation, it's the president's.  If he sees fit to order an investigation, I will fully support it."  Asking an accused person to pursue an investigation of himself is a little crazy, don't you think?

No.  I don't think it's crazy.  If you accuse me of something terrible and I know I'm innocent and that interviewing my network of friends and relatives will show that, then sign me up for the FBI investigation.  I think he's fearful that such an investigation will prove he was at the party/gathering in question.  I mentioned earlier that I believe he probably didn't ever mean to try raping the girl.  I suspect he did as accused, but did so thinking he was playing harmless grabass and having a good time.  Basically, a difference in the perceptions of the accuser and the supposed attacker.  

Kavanaugh knows absolutely damn well that the GOP wants no investigation in fine details, so it's easy for him to say "whatever the committee wants...." because he knows they want NO investigation.  It'll take time.  It might find dirt.  It could mean they need to find a new judge and time is of the essence right now.  I believe they may find that his little calendar entry noting "Skis at Billi's house with Judge, PJ, etc"  will be brewskis at Billi's house and maybe that's the house in question.  Ford says PJ and Judge were there.  I suspect it'll also find others that corroborate that he was a blackout drunk, which makes him a perjurer.  IN fact, I believe he told a bunch of obvious lies on the stand.  Little lies, mind you, such as calling Devil's Triangle a drinking game (gimme a fucking break) and claiming that the "Renata alumnus" claims were just a salute to her, when it's clear it's not.  Or claiming he never got super drunk when his best buddy wrote a book stating that he'd gotten drunk, puked in his car and passed out.  Granted, those aren't the kinds of lies under oath that make me scream for jail time.  It's the kind of lie like Clinton claiming he didn't boink around with Monica.  I'm not losing sleep about him acting like a 17 yr old in his yearbook when he was a 17 yr old.  I'm more concerned about the obvious lying about stupid shit when he could just say "Yeah, I was a dumb ass teen that did dumb ass and thoughtless shit!  And then I went to college and learned what a dumb ass I was being and became a much better person and that's the person you see now."  95% of Americans could get down and on a level with that kind of statement.  I could.  

Lastly, I thought his time on the stand was really pretty unhinged at points, and reeked of a bad temperament for that kind of job.  Sneering.  Yelling.  Crying.  Very partisan statements about Clinton and Trump.  Harassing the senators even over pretty innocuous questions about his drinking in high school.  Klobuchar couldn't have been more professional with him and he acted like a child to her.  I believe Durbin made him look VERY nervous and like a terrible witness.  He couldn't give a straight answer to anyone.  Asked Klobuchar how much she drinks.  He was flat out awful.  If people want to call this a Dem hit job then why did no such thing happen during Gorsuch?  If this is a hit job, why was Ford trying to get the word out about Kavanaugh BEFORE he was nominated by Trump?

I walked away from that hearing believing he was a poor candidate NOT because of what Dr. Ford said, but because of how he carried himself.  He was unhinged.  Her testimony made me feel sorry for her, but also made me further believe that his actions toward her were probably believed by him to have been harmless drunken grab ass time.  I'll bet he never thought a second time about until it was brought up a week ago.

And another little lie:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kavanaugh-testified-legal-drinking-age-18_us_5baea717e4b027da00d33d5f

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

jaywit wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:My overall take on this will probably come as a bit of a surprise.  While I think this probably occurred just about exactly as she notes it, I suspect he always considered that moment (assuming he remembers it) to be harmless, drunken silly time.  Most likely he knows it occurred, but isn't going to allow it to blow up his nomination when he always thought of it as silly fun.  I suspect he didn't actually plan to rape her.  Her point about the guys laughing hysterically during the attack leads me to view it less as sexual and/or violent, and more as just stupid assed teen behavior.  

I don't mean to justify it.  I didn't do shit like that, and wouldn't have if given the chance.  But I can see the fine line whereby some believe this is childish shit unworthy of killing a career or ruining his nomination.  I think the guy is a bit of a shit.  It'd be great if he doesn't make it and they find someone new, but I suspect that the GOP senators are concluding that it sounds like teen stupidity gone off the rails and I believe he'll be confirmed.

I watched opening statements of both (as well as much of the questioning of both) and found both equally compelling.  I truly believe in their hearts both are telling the truth.  One of the two's memory is failing them and I have to trust the non-drinker over the drinker.  I'm glad an investigation has been ordered.



I didn't get the push by the democrats to force Kavanaugh to ask for an FBI investigation.  I'm not sure why he didn't respond with "...it's not my place to ask for an FBI investigation, it's the president's.  If he sees fit to order an investigation, I will fully support it."  Asking an accused person to pursue an investigation of himself is a little crazy, don't you think?

No.  I don't think it's crazy.  If you accuse me of something terrible and I know I'm innocent and that interviewing my network of friends and relatives will show that, then sign me up for the FBI investigation.  I think he's fearful that such an investigation will prove he was at the party/gathering in question.  I mentioned earlier that I believe he probably didn't ever mean to try raping the girl.  I suspect he did as accused, but did so thinking he was playing harmless grabass and having a good time.  Basically, a difference in the perceptions of the accuser and the supposed attacker.  

Kavanaugh knows absolutely damn well that the GOP wants no investigation in fine details, so it's easy for him to say "whatever the committee wants...." because he knows they want NO investigation.  It'll take time.  It might find dirt.  It could mean they need to find a new judge and time is of the essence right now.  I believe they may find that his little calendar entry noting "Skis at Billi's house with Judge, PJ, etc"  will be brewskis at Billi's house and maybe that's the house in question.  Ford says PJ and Judge were there.  I suspect it'll also find others that corroborate that he was a blackout drunk, which makes him a perjurer.  IN fact, I believe he told a bunch of obvious lies on the stand.  Little lies, mind you, such as calling Devil's Triangle a drinking game (gimme a fucking break) and claiming that the "Renata alumnus" claims were just a salute to her, when it's clear it's not.  Or claiming he never got super drunk when his best buddy wrote a book stating that he'd gotten drunk, puked in his car and passed out.  Granted, those aren't the kinds of lies under oath that make me scream for jail time.  It's the kind of lie like Clinton claiming he didn't boink around with Monica.  I'm not losing sleep about him acting like a 17 yr old in his yearbook when he was a 17 yr old.  I'm more concerned about the obvious lying about stupid shit when he could just say "Yeah, I was a dumb ass teen that did dumb ass and thoughtless shit!  And then I went to college and learned what a dumb ass I was being and became a much better person and that's the person you see now."  95% of Americans could get down and on a level with that kind of statement.  I could.  

Lastly, I thought his time on the stand was really pretty unhinged at points, and reeked of a bad temperament for that kind of job.  Sneering.  Yelling.  Crying.  Very partisan statements about Clinton and Trump.  Harassing the senators even over pretty innocuous questions about his drinking in high school.  Klobuchar couldn't have been more professional with him and he acted like a child to her.  I believe Durbin made him look VERY nervous and like a terrible witness.  He couldn't give a straight answer to anyone.  Asked Klobuchar how much she drinks.  He was flat out awful.  If people want to call this a Dem hit job then why did no such thing happen during Gorsuch?  If this is a hit job, why was Ford trying to get the word out about Kavanaugh BEFORE he was nominated by Trump?

I walked away from that hearing believing he was a poor candidate NOT because of what Dr. Ford said, but because of how he carried himself.  He was unhinged.  Her testimony made me feel sorry for her, but also made me further believe that his actions toward her were probably believed by him to have been harmless drunken grab ass time.  I'll bet he never thought a second time about until it was brought up a week ago.

And another little lie:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kavanaugh-testified-legal-drinking-age-18_us_5baea717e4b027da00d33d5f

That lie could be passed off as just misinformation, i.e. Oh, I thought it was 18 back then...I guess we were underage drinking.

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

jaywit wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:My overall take on this will probably come as a bit of a surprise.  While I think this probably occurred just about exactly as she notes it, I suspect he always considered that moment (assuming he remembers it) to be harmless, drunken silly time.  Most likely he knows it occurred, but isn't going to allow it to blow up his nomination when he always thought of it as silly fun.  I suspect he didn't actually plan to rape her.  Her point about the guys laughing hysterically during the attack leads me to view it less as sexual and/or violent, and more as just stupid assed teen behavior.  

I don't mean to justify it.  I didn't do shit like that, and wouldn't have if given the chance.  But I can see the fine line whereby some believe this is childish shit unworthy of killing a career or ruining his nomination.  I think the guy is a bit of a shit.  It'd be great if he doesn't make it and they find someone new, but I suspect that the GOP senators are concluding that it sounds like teen stupidity gone off the rails and I believe he'll be confirmed.

I watched opening statements of both (as well as much of the questioning of both) and found both equally compelling.  I truly believe in their hearts both are telling the truth.  One of the two's memory is failing them and I have to trust the non-drinker over the drinker.  I'm glad an investigation has been ordered.



I didn't get the push by the democrats to force Kavanaugh to ask for an FBI investigation.  I'm not sure why he didn't respond with "...it's not my place to ask for an FBI investigation, it's the president's.  If he sees fit to order an investigation, I will fully support it."  Asking an accused person to pursue an investigation of himself is a little crazy, don't you think?

No.  I don't think it's crazy.  If you accuse me of something terrible and I know I'm innocent and that interviewing my network of friends and relatives will show that, then sign me up for the FBI investigation.  I think he's fearful that such an investigation will prove he was at the party/gathering in question.  I mentioned earlier that I believe he probably didn't ever mean to try raping the girl.  I suspect he did as accused, but did so thinking he was playing harmless grabass and having a good time.  Basically, a difference in the perceptions of the accuser and the supposed attacker.  

Kavanaugh knows absolutely damn well that the GOP wants no investigation in fine details, so it's easy for him to say "whatever the committee wants...." because he knows they want NO investigation.  It'll take time.  It might find dirt.  It could mean they need to find a new judge and time is of the essence right now.  I believe they may find that his little calendar entry noting "Skis at Billi's house with Judge, PJ, etc"  will be brewskis at Billi's house and maybe that's the house in question.  Ford says PJ and Judge were there.  I suspect it'll also find others that corroborate that he was a blackout drunk, which makes him a perjurer.  IN fact, I believe he told a bunch of obvious lies on the stand.  Little lies, mind you, such as calling Devil's Triangle a drinking game (gimme a fucking break) and claiming that the "Renata alumnus" claims were just a salute to her, when it's clear it's not.  Or claiming he never got super drunk when his best buddy wrote a book stating that he'd gotten drunk, puked in his car and passed out.  Granted, those aren't the kinds of lies under oath that make me scream for jail time.  It's the kind of lie like Clinton claiming he didn't boink around with Monica.  I'm not losing sleep about him acting like a 17 yr old in his yearbook when he was a 17 yr old.  I'm more concerned about the obvious lying about stupid shit when he could just say "Yeah, I was a dumb ass teen that did dumb ass and thoughtless shit!  And then I went to college and learned what a dumb ass I was being and became a much better person and that's the person you see now."  95% of Americans could get down and on a level with that kind of statement.  I could.  

Lastly, I thought his time on the stand was really pretty unhinged at points, and reeked of a bad temperament for that kind of job.  Sneering.  Yelling.  Crying.  Very partisan statements about Clinton and Trump.  Harassing the senators even over pretty innocuous questions about his drinking in high school.  Klobuchar couldn't have been more professional with him and he acted like a child to her.  I believe Durbin made him look VERY nervous and like a terrible witness.  He couldn't give a straight answer to anyone.  Asked Klobuchar how much she drinks.  He was flat out awful.  If people want to call this a Dem hit job then why did no such thing happen during Gorsuch?  If this is a hit job, why was Ford trying to get the word out about Kavanaugh BEFORE he was nominated by Trump?

I walked away from that hearing believing he was a poor candidate NOT because of what Dr. Ford said, but because of how he carried himself.  He was unhinged.  Her testimony made me feel sorry for her, but also made me further believe that his actions toward her were probably believed by him to have been harmless drunken grab ass time.  I'll bet he never thought a second time about until it was brought up a week ago.

And another little lie:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kavanaugh-testified-legal-drinking-age-18_us_5baea717e4b027da00d33d5f

That lie could be passed off as just misinformation, i.e. Oh, I thought it was 18 back then...I guess we were underage drinking.

He could try to pass off any of his lies for any reason, but he certainly knew he was lying.   A kid looks forward to turning 16 so he can drive, then 21 so he can buy booze/drink.  I most certainly know the drinking age was 21 when I was in high school, and that it was 19 in Wisconsin, because we would drive up there to go to bars.

sharpy wrote:Her testimony made me feel sorry for her, but also made me further believe that his actions toward her were probably believed by him to have been harmless drunken grab ass time. 

Isn't that kind of the crux of the entire problem with this part of society. Men are raised, or were raised, to believe these actions are 'harmless drunken grab ass time' instead of essentially sexual assault. Even your statements Rob can be taken as these "harmless drunken grab ass time" isn't really a big deal which is why he believes he did nothing wrong. When I was a teenager, one of my friends dad would say to him every time we were going out - HS football game, party, hanging around the neighborhood, every time we went out, he'd say 'remember, don't come back until you get some"....now, was he kidding? or is this the philosophy that he truly believed. I know I occasionally put my hands where I am sure they weren't wanted - I didn't know if I thought it was harmless. To be honest, I doubt I had the insight at 16, 17, 18 to even think in that manner - but it was wrong - whether I thought it was wrong or not ...it was wrong. And even if I didn't think it was wrong at that time, it was wrong then, and it is wrong now.  Now, should Kavanaugh lose his entire life over something like this? no, I don't think he should. I never thought anyone should have a life 99% good be destroyed b/c of one mistake that ruins it ….but it happens probably 100 times a day somewhere - I hope Brett doesn't get in b/c I don't believe in his politics. I don't believe he will be apolotical. I do believe he will be beholden to Trump and give him a free pass no matter what he does. I don't like his actions during Bush's stance on torture, nor his involvement with Kenneth Starr and that whole investigation.... that's why he should be out -  now if it turns out he did help gangbang drunken girls, or some other weird shit in college like expose himself,  then yea, he should be gone. 

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

jaywit wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:My overall take on this will probably come as a bit of a surprise.  While I think this probably occurred just about exactly as she notes it, I suspect he always considered that moment (assuming he remembers it) to be harmless, drunken silly time.  Most likely he knows it occurred, but isn't going to allow it to blow up his nomination when he always thought of it as silly fun.  I suspect he didn't actually plan to rape her.  Her point about the guys laughing hysterically during the attack leads me to view it less as sexual and/or violent, and more as just stupid assed teen behavior.  

I don't mean to justify it.  I didn't do shit like that, and wouldn't have if given the chance.  But I can see the fine line whereby some believe this is childish shit unworthy of killing a career or ruining his nomination.  I think the guy is a bit of a shit.  It'd be great if he doesn't make it and they find someone new, but I suspect that the GOP senators are concluding that it sounds like teen stupidity gone off the rails and I believe he'll be confirmed.

I watched opening statements of both (as well as much of the questioning of both) and found both equally compelling.  I truly believe in their hearts both are telling the truth.  One of the two's memory is failing them and I have to trust the non-drinker over the drinker.  I'm glad an investigation has been ordered.



I didn't get the push by the democrats to force Kavanaugh to ask for an FBI investigation.  I'm not sure why he didn't respond with "...it's not my place to ask for an FBI investigation, it's the president's.  If he sees fit to order an investigation, I will fully support it."  Asking an accused person to pursue an investigation of himself is a little crazy, don't you think?

No.  I don't think it's crazy.  If you accuse me of something terrible and I know I'm innocent and that interviewing my network of friends and relatives will show that, then sign me up for the FBI investigation.  I think he's fearful that such an investigation will prove he was at the party/gathering in question.  I mentioned earlier that I believe he probably didn't ever mean to try raping the girl.  I suspect he did as accused, but did so thinking he was playing harmless grabass and having a good time.  Basically, a difference in the perceptions of the accuser and the supposed attacker.  

Kavanaugh knows absolutely damn well that the GOP wants no investigation in fine details, so it's easy for him to say "whatever the committee wants...." because he knows they want NO investigation.  It'll take time.  It might find dirt.  It could mean they need to find a new judge and time is of the essence right now.  I believe they may find that his little calendar entry noting "Skis at Billi's house with Judge, PJ, etc"  will be brewskis at Billi's house and maybe that's the house in question.  Ford says PJ and Judge were there.  I suspect it'll also find others that corroborate that he was a blackout drunk, which makes him a perjurer.  IN fact, I believe he told a bunch of obvious lies on the stand.  Little lies, mind you, such as calling Devil's Triangle a drinking game (gimme a fucking break) and claiming that the "Renata alumnus" claims were just a salute to her, when it's clear it's not.  Or claiming he never got super drunk when his best buddy wrote a book stating that he'd gotten drunk, puked in his car and passed out.  Granted, those aren't the kinds of lies under oath that make me scream for jail time.  It's the kind of lie like Clinton claiming he didn't boink around with Monica.  I'm not losing sleep about him acting like a 17 yr old in his yearbook when he was a 17 yr old.  I'm more concerned about the obvious lying about stupid shit when he could just say "Yeah, I was a dumb ass teen that did dumb ass and thoughtless shit!  And then I went to college and learned what a dumb ass I was being and became a much better person and that's the person you see now."  95% of Americans could get down and on a level with that kind of statement.  I could.  

Lastly, I thought his time on the stand was really pretty unhinged at points, and reeked of a bad temperament for that kind of job.  Sneering.  Yelling.  Crying.  Very partisan statements about Clinton and Trump.  Harassing the senators even over pretty innocuous questions about his drinking in high school.  Klobuchar couldn't have been more professional with him and he acted like a child to her.  I believe Durbin made him look VERY nervous and like a terrible witness.  He couldn't give a straight answer to anyone.  Asked Klobuchar how much she drinks.  He was flat out awful.  If people want to call this a Dem hit job then why did no such thing happen during Gorsuch?  If this is a hit job, why was Ford trying to get the word out about Kavanaugh BEFORE he was nominated by Trump?

I walked away from that hearing believing he was a poor candidate NOT because of what Dr. Ford said, but because of how he carried himself.  He was unhinged.  Her testimony made me feel sorry for her, but also made me further believe that his actions toward her were probably believed by him to have been harmless drunken grab ass time.  I'll bet he never thought a second time about until it was brought up a week ago.

blondy28 wrote:

sharpy wrote:Her testimony made me feel sorry for her, but also made me further believe that his actions toward her were probably believed by him to have been harmless drunken grab ass time. 

Isn't that kind of the crux of the entire problem with this part of society. Men are raised, or were raised, to believe these actions are 'harmless drunken grab ass time' instead of essentially sexual assault. Even your statements Rob can be taken as these "harmless drunken grab ass time" isn't really a big deal which is why he believes he did nothing wrong. When I was a teenager, one of my friends dad would say to him every time we were going out - HS football game, party, hanging around the neighborhood, every time we went out, he'd say 'remember, don't come back until you get some"....now, was he kidding? or is this the philosophy that he truly believed. I know I occasionally put my hands where I am sure they weren't wanted - I didn't know if I thought it was harmless. To be honest, I doubt I had the insight at 16, 17, 18 to even think in that manner - but it was wrong - whether I thought it was wrong or not ...it was wrong. And even if I didn't think it was wrong at that time, it was wrong then, and it is wrong now.  Now, should Kavanaugh lose his entire life over something like this? no, I don't think he should. I never thought anyone should have a life 99% good be destroyed b/c of one mistake that ruins it ….but it happens probably 100 times a day somewhere - I hope Brett doesn't get in b/c I don't believe in his politics. I don't believe he will be apolotical. I do believe he will be beholden to Trump and give him a free pass no matter what he does. I don't like his actions during Bush's stance on torture, nor his involvement with Kenneth Starr and that whole investigation.... that's why he should be out -  now if it turns out he did help gangbang drunken girls, or some other weird shit in college like expose himself,  then yea, he should be gone. 

In general, I agree with all that you've said about perspectives of young boys maybe believing they were just playing "grab ass", but there's something in this situation that gives me pause.  If Dr. Ford's account is correct, and Mark Judge was alternating between encouraging Kavanaugh to "go for it" and to stop, I feel like it might have been beyond "grab ass".  Factor in what she said about seeing Judge at the grocery store and his reaction to seeing her, and it suggests to me that even back in the early 80s...when we viewed things much differently...that this assault was outside the scope of general, pre-me too grab ass.  As I think Rob mentioned, putting your hand over someone's mouth takes it to a new level.  Turning up music so your struggles can't be heard.  Based on Dr. Ford's account, it sure sounds like Mark Judge was the one who at least seemed to have a hint of decency and doubt about what was going on...not only with his words in sometimes urging Kavanaugh to stop, but the way she described when their eyes met, seemingly suggesting that he saw the terror in her eyes, and then his reaction to her at the store.  Now I take this scenario, and couple that with Kavanaugh's performance at the hearing...the yelling, cockiness, entitlement, condescension, head spinning nastiness, and I think at the very least we have a Jekyll/Hyde situation.   He wouldn't be the first person who moves through life as a seemingly principled person, but who has a very dark side...particularly when he's drinking. I get the impression that he's a functioning alcoholic.    Kavanaugh wouldn't be losing his entire life if he doesn't get confirmed to the Supreme Court.  He simply wouldn't be getting a job he wanted.  And yes, that job loss would come with tremendous consequence to him personally, but seems to me that many of us have consequences as adults from our decisions as teens.  Mark Judge almost died from alcoholism, which was a direct result of his decisions as a teen.  It's a different kind of consequence, to be sure, but I don't know that I'm playing a violin for Kavanaugh if he loses out on a job because of his past behavior.  Seems to me that it may be the first time in his life that he was actually accountable and paid consequences.

jaywit wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

sharpy wrote:Her testimony made me feel sorry for her, but also made me further believe that his actions toward her were probably believed by him to have been harmless drunken grab ass time. 

Isn't that kind of the crux of the entire problem with this part of society. Men are raised, or were raised, to believe these actions are 'harmless drunken grab ass time' instead of essentially sexual assault. Even your statements Rob can be taken as these "harmless drunken grab ass time" isn't really a big deal which is why he believes he did nothing wrong. When I was a teenager, one of my friends dad would say to him every time we were going out - HS football game, party, hanging around the neighborhood, every time we went out, he'd say 'remember, don't come back until you get some"....now, was he kidding? or is this the philosophy that he truly believed. I know I occasionally put my hands where I am sure they weren't wanted - I didn't know if I thought it was harmless. To be honest, I doubt I had the insight at 16, 17, 18 to even think in that manner - but it was wrong - whether I thought it was wrong or not ...it was wrong. And even if I didn't think it was wrong at that time, it was wrong then, and it is wrong now.  Now, should Kavanaugh lose his entire life over something like this? no, I don't think he should. I never thought anyone should have a life 99% good be destroyed b/c of one mistake that ruins it ….but it happens probably 100 times a day somewhere - I hope Brett doesn't get in b/c I don't believe in his politics. I don't believe he will be apolotical. I do believe he will be beholden to Trump and give him a free pass no matter what he does. I don't like his actions during Bush's stance on torture, nor his involvement with Kenneth Starr and that whole investigation.... that's why he should be out -  now if it turns out he did help gangbang drunken girls, or some other weird shit in college like expose himself,  then yea, he should be gone. 

In general, I agree with all that you've said about perspectives of young boys maybe believing they were just playing "grab ass", but there's something in this situation that gives me pause.  If Dr. Ford's account is correct, and Mark Judge was alternating between encouraging Kavanaugh to "go for it" and to stop, I feel like it might have been beyond "grab ass".  Factor in what she said about seeing Judge at the grocery store and his reaction to seeing her, and it suggests to me that even back in the early 80s...when we viewed things much differently...that this assault was outside the scope of general, pre-me too grab ass.  As I think Rob mentioned, putting your hand over someone's mouth takes it to a new level.  Turning up music so your struggles can't be heard.  Based on Dr. Ford's account, it sure sounds like Mark Judge was the one who at least seemed to have a hint of decency and doubt about what was going on...not only with his words in sometimes urging Kavanaugh to stop, but the way she described when their eyes met, seemingly suggesting that he saw the terror in her eyes, and then his reaction to her at the store.  Now I take this scenario, and couple that with Kavanaugh's performance at the hearing...the yelling, cockiness, entitlement, condescension, head spinning nastiness, and I think at the very least we have a Jekyll/Hyde situation.   He wouldn't be the first person who moves through life as a seemingly principled person, but who has a very dark side...particularly when he's drinking. I get the impression that he's a functioning alcoholic.    Kavanaugh wouldn't be losing his entire life if he doesn't get confirmed to the Supreme Court.  He simply wouldn't be getting a job he wanted.  And yes, that job loss would come with tremendous consequence to him personally, but seems to me that many of us have consequences as adults from our decisions as teens.  Mark Judge almost died from alcoholism, which was a direct result of his decisions as a teen.  It's a different kind of consequence, to be sure, but I don't know that I'm playing a violin for Kavanaugh if he loses out on a job because of his past behavior.  Seems to me that it may be the first time in his life that he was actually accountable and paid consequences.

One thing I'm hopeful for that comes from this exchange:  I hope the manner in which Blasey Ford was treated by the senate will serve as an example to which women with similar stories should be treated.  I hope it provides encouragement to other women with similar experiences to come to the forefront.  I hope it provides a lasting national sentiment by which defense attorneys will realize that painting the accusing victim as something less than honorable will be met with a juror response that is unfavorable to their cause.  

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:Aloha, is that your girl Alyssa Milano I see behind Kavanaugh?

Presumably it's not, but sure looks like her!

The Hawaii senator is less than impressive.  She should cede her time to Kamala Harris.

I like her line of questioning, actually.  She is a weird one, though.  Kind of robotic.

jaywit wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:Aloha, is that your girl Alyssa Milano I see behind Kavanaugh?

Presumably it's not, but sure looks like her!

The Hawaii senator is less than impressive.  She should cede her time to Kamala Harris.

I like her line of questioning, actually.  She is a weird one, though.  Kind of robotic.

I was least impressed with Harris.  As the senators proceeded in turn, Kavanaugh's game plan became obvious.  Talk long, talk circuitous, repeat, all in an effort to eat up the 5 minute allotted question/answer period.  Hirono and Booker at least attempted with some success to cut off Kavanaugh.  For the last minute of her time, Harris look-dumbfounded with her chin resting on her folded hands as Kavanaugh rambled, all the body language of not knowing how to cut Kavanaugh short.


I have a lot of respect for Hirono.  From what I see, she calls a spade a spade, forthright, confident, and persevering while battling stage IV kidney cancer.

jaywit wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

jaywit wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:My overall take on this will probably come as a bit of a surprise.  While I think this probably occurred just about exactly as she notes it, I suspect he always considered that moment (assuming he remembers it) to be harmless, drunken silly time.  Most likely he knows it occurred, but isn't going to allow it to blow up his nomination when he always thought of it as silly fun.  I suspect he didn't actually plan to rape her.  Her point about the guys laughing hysterically during the attack leads me to view it less as sexual and/or violent, and more as just stupid assed teen behavior.  

I don't mean to justify it.  I didn't do shit like that, and wouldn't have if given the chance.  But I can see the fine line whereby some believe this is childish shit unworthy of killing a career or ruining his nomination.  I think the guy is a bit of a shit.  It'd be great if he doesn't make it and they find someone new, but I suspect that the GOP senators are concluding that it sounds like teen stupidity gone off the rails and I believe he'll be confirmed.

I watched opening statements of both (as well as much of the questioning of both) and found both equally compelling.  I truly believe in their hearts both are telling the truth.  One of the two's memory is failing them and I have to trust the non-drinker over the drinker.  I'm glad an investigation has been ordered.



I didn't get the push by the democrats to force Kavanaugh to ask for an FBI investigation.  I'm not sure why he didn't respond with "...it's not my place to ask for an FBI investigation, it's the president's.  If he sees fit to order an investigation, I will fully support it."  Asking an accused person to pursue an investigation of himself is a little crazy, don't you think?

No.  I don't think it's crazy.  If you accuse me of something terrible and I know I'm innocent and that interviewing my network of friends and relatives will show that, then sign me up for the FBI investigation.  I think he's fearful that such an investigation will prove he was at the party/gathering in question.  I mentioned earlier that I believe he probably didn't ever mean to try raping the girl.  I suspect he did as accused, but did so thinking he was playing harmless grabass and having a good time.  Basically, a difference in the perceptions of the accuser and the supposed attacker.  

Kavanaugh knows absolutely damn well that the GOP wants no investigation in fine details, so it's easy for him to say "whatever the committee wants...." because he knows they want NO investigation.  It'll take time.  It might find dirt.  It could mean they need to find a new judge and time is of the essence right now.  I believe they may find that his little calendar entry noting "Skis at Billi's house with Judge, PJ, etc"  will be brewskis at Billi's house and maybe that's the house in question.  Ford says PJ and Judge were there.  I suspect it'll also find others that corroborate that he was a blackout drunk, which makes him a perjurer.  IN fact, I believe he told a bunch of obvious lies on the stand.  Little lies, mind you, such as calling Devil's Triangle a drinking game (gimme a fucking break) and claiming that the "Renata alumnus" claims were just a salute to her, when it's clear it's not.  Or claiming he never got super drunk when his best buddy wrote a book stating that he'd gotten drunk, puked in his car and passed out.  Granted, those aren't the kinds of lies under oath that make me scream for jail time.  It's the kind of lie like Clinton claiming he didn't boink around with Monica.  I'm not losing sleep about him acting like a 17 yr old in his yearbook when he was a 17 yr old.  I'm more concerned about the obvious lying about stupid shit when he could just say "Yeah, I was a dumb ass teen that did dumb ass and thoughtless shit!  And then I went to college and learned what a dumb ass I was being and became a much better person and that's the person you see now."  95% of Americans could get down and on a level with that kind of statement.  I could.  

Lastly, I thought his time on the stand was really pretty unhinged at points, and reeked of a bad temperament for that kind of job.  Sneering.  Yelling.  Crying.  Very partisan statements about Clinton and Trump.  Harassing the senators even over pretty innocuous questions about his drinking in high school.  Klobuchar couldn't have been more professional with him and he acted like a child to her.  I believe Durbin made him look VERY nervous and like a terrible witness.  He couldn't give a straight answer to anyone.  Asked Klobuchar how much she drinks.  He was flat out awful.  If people want to call this a Dem hit job then why did no such thing happen during Gorsuch?  If this is a hit job, why was Ford trying to get the word out about Kavanaugh BEFORE he was nominated by Trump?

I walked away from that hearing believing he was a poor candidate NOT because of what Dr. Ford said, but because of how he carried himself.  He was unhinged.  Her testimony made me feel sorry for her, but also made me further believe that his actions toward her were probably believed by him to have been harmless drunken grab ass time.  I'll bet he never thought a second time about until it was brought up a week ago.

Let me know if the following is correct.  Today, if I accuse you of sexual misconduct, you will soon be calling the FBI/authorities to initiate an investigation of yourself?  Or will you be supportive and fully cooperative of an investigation as it unfolds?  If it were me, my first move is the latter.  When Durbin was repeatedly demanding Kavanaugh turn to the Trump flunkie and ask for an investigation, in essence, he was asking Kavanaugh to initiate an investigation of himself.  Kavanaugh's response should have deferred to the judgment of the president and accept his decision.  


I agree that Kavanaugh didn't carry himself well during the questioning and appeared angry.  His responses and retorts at times were sophomoric.  But, at the same time, he was being asked about his life when he was a juvenile, having to defend his actions as a teenager.  I've never forced myself on anyone and I'd still find that terrifying.  How would I carry myself as I defend who I was at 17 years old to the senate and to the televised world?  I don't know, I might curl up into a little ball.  Or, I might wonder, am I the only one here who was once 17?  Were you never 17?  So, yes, he didn't carry himself in a "judgly" manner.  However, what was uncovered or implied made him any more or less likely to have committed the offense in question.  I'm in favor of further investigation based upon the veracity of Ford's testimony, not the weakness of Kavanaugh's.

jaywit wrote:

I was least impressed with Harris.  As the senators proceeded in turn, Kavanaugh's game plan became obvious.  Talk long, talk circuitous, repeat, all in an effort to eat up the 5 minute allotted question/answer period.  Hirono and Booker at least attempted with some success to cut off Kavanaugh.  For the last minute of her time, Harris look-dumbfounded with her chin resting on her folded hands as Kavanaugh rambled, all the body language of not knowing how to cut Kavanaugh short.

blondy28 wrote:Trump has limited the scope of the FBI investigation.  Won't allow them to talk to Safeway where Judge worked or Yale classmates.

jaywit wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:Aloha, is that your girl Alyssa Milano I see behind Kavanaugh?

Presumably it's not, but sure looks like her!

The Hawaii senator is less than impressive.  She should cede her time to Kamala Harris.

I like her line of questioning, actually.  She is a weird one, though.  Kind of robotic.

I was least impressed with Harris.  As the senators proceeded in turn, Kavanaugh's game plan became obvious.  Talk long, talk circuitous, repeat, all in an effort to eat up the 5 minute allotted question/answer period.  Hirono and Booker at least attempted with some success to cut off Kavanaugh.  For the last minute of her time, Harris look-dumbfounded with her chin resting on her folded hands as Kavanaugh rambled, all the body language of not knowing how to cut Kavanaugh short.


I have a lot of respect for Hirono.  From what I see, she calls a spade a spade, forthright, confident, and persevering while battling stage IV kidney cancer.

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:Trump has limited the scope of the FBI investigation.  Won't allow them to talk to Safeway where Judge worked or Yale classmates.

Pam, this thing is clearly a cover up.  Why on earth wouldn't the FBI try to corroborate the story further by clarifying when he worked at Safeway?  Why block the FBI from discussing stuff with his college roomies?  They know something and don't want it getting found out.  Clearly they are trying to avoid conversations with anyone that might open a huge can of worms.

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

jaywit wrote:

I was least impressed with Harris.  As the senators proceeded in turn, Kavanaugh's game plan became obvious.  Talk long, talk circuitous, repeat, all in an effort to eat up the 5 minute allotted question/answer period.  Hirono and Booker at least attempted with some success to cut off Kavanaugh.  For the last minute of her time, Harris look-dumbfounded with her chin resting on her folded hands as Kavanaugh rambled, all the body language of not knowing how to cut Kavanaugh short.

Interesting comments and observations on Harris.  I'm generally impressed with her on most occasions.  Not "WOW" impressed, but I find her seriousness and intelligence a bit entertaining and almost scary sometimes.  

Lately, I'm having a sneaking suspicion she will be the Dem on the ticket in 2020, unless it's someone like Biden.  She'll play well in the southern primaries and California.  I also think there might be a reflexive reaction by the left to nominate someone that is in every way the exact opposite of Trump, and in Harris' case, she is pretty much the 180 degree opposite in every plausible realm.  Not saying this to tout her or say I hope she's the nominee.  Just saying I have a sneaking feeling that's where the party might be headed be it for good or bad.