Quintana moved to the Cubs

frank bonifacic wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

frank bonifacic wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

frank bonifacic wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:How did Mr. Hot Garbage look today?  He should do just fine in the NL, especially with getting to face the occasional pitcher.  If he just pitches to his ordinary form baseball card stats, then the Cubs will be very happy to have him.

About as good as hot garbage Arietta looked yesterday.  Baltimore made our 2017 awful pitching and anemic hitting look like 2016.

There is absolutely no reason to think Quintana is anything different from the guy he's been for the last several seasons.  His velocity isn't down.  His stuff is good.  His ERA was inflated due to a couple of pretty horrible starts.  Unless you have ins on some kind of physical problem with him, he should be fine.  He is a very consistent performer.

Whoopie.

Understand if that doesn't excite you, but that isn't the definition of hot garbage.  Mark Buehrle made a hell of a career out of being a solid 2 or great 3, and helped his team win a WS in the process.

The ONLY negative on Quintana has been his W-L record! Since 2013, he has 59 no decisiond which is indicative of the hirseshit run support he had had- also worst run support in MLB in his career. By all numbers one of top 5-10 pitchers in AL and probably near yop 10 in MLB.
You are sounding like a typical Cub fan. " we should get Kershaw - hell we can give them Almora & Russell, maybe throw in Zobrist or a minor leaguer."

The typical Chicago fan thinks we could trade Tommy LaStella straight up for Kershaw.   By contrast, my Sox fan cousin, who believes this was a good trade for both teams, qualifies it by saying "that being said, the Cubs overpaid".  That makes it a bad deal in my book.

Oh, I wasn't aware your Sox fan cousin thought the Cubs overpaid-that changes everything!
Did you hear the announcers on NBC, have you heard from the managers and coaches around the league? Have you heard people talk (including Theo & Jeb) how their desire was for a young, good controllable pitcher-not necessarily for this year but also in future? They got top pitcher on market. And great clubhouse guy.and teammate. Doesn't bitch about close calls to umps, doesn't berate teammates who blow defensive plays-and as Rob mentioned NEVER on DL.


You mentioned sad sack Orioles. They have some decent hitters (reference game 1 of series) and Camden is one of top home run producing parks in MLB. 
I'll await your admission that you were wrong for later in season (unlike others we have known, I believe you would admit being wrong. 

Seems like folks in the sports biz lauded the Bears' acquisition of Cutler back in the day as well.  

Trust me, nothing would please me more than to come back here and eat crow after Quintana pitches in the World Series winning game.

Just checked the record (can google jose quintana run support and read article on lack thereof)
Since 2005, 173 pitchers have pitched at least 700 innings. Jose Quintana is 164th in run support. His run support has been 2.26 which means he would receive 2 runs or less in 57% of his starts.
This means that in 3 out of every 5 games he pitched , he was forced to throw a 2 run game for a CHANCE  for a NO-DECISION!

blondy28 wrote:

frank bonifacic wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

frank bonifacic wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

frank bonifacic wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:How did Mr. Hot Garbage look today?  He should do just fine in the NL, especially with getting to face the occasional pitcher.  If he just pitches to his ordinary form baseball card stats, then the Cubs will be very happy to have him.

About as good as hot garbage Arietta looked yesterday.  Baltimore made our 2017 awful pitching and anemic hitting look like 2016.

There is absolutely no reason to think Quintana is anything different from the guy he's been for the last several seasons.  His velocity isn't down.  His stuff is good.  His ERA was inflated due to a couple of pretty horrible starts.  Unless you have ins on some kind of physical problem with him, he should be fine.  He is a very consistent performer.

Whoopie.

Understand if that doesn't excite you, but that isn't the definition of hot garbage.  Mark Buehrle made a hell of a career out of being a solid 2 or great 3, and helped his team win a WS in the process.

The ONLY negative on Quintana has been his W-L record! Since 2013, he has 59 no decisiond which is indicative of the hirseshit run support he had had- also worst run support in MLB in his career. By all numbers one of top 5-10 pitchers in AL and probably near yop 10 in MLB.
You are sounding like a typical Cub fan. " we should get Kershaw - hell we can give them Almora & Russell, maybe throw in Zobrist or a minor leaguer."

The typical Chicago fan thinks we could trade Tommy LaStella straight up for Kershaw.   By contrast, my Sox fan cousin, who believes this was a good trade for both teams, qualifies it by saying "that being said, the Cubs overpaid".  That makes it a bad deal in my book.

Oh, I wasn't aware your Sox fan cousin thought the Cubs overpaid-that changes everything!
Did you hear the announcers on NBC, have you heard from the managers and coaches around the league? Have you heard people talk (including Theo & Jeb) how their desire was for a young, good controllable pitcher-not necessarily for this year but also in future? They got top pitcher on market. And great clubhouse guy.and teammate. Doesn't bitch about close calls to umps, doesn't berate teammates who blow defensive plays-and as Rob mentioned NEVER on DL.


You mentioned sad sack Orioles. They have some decent hitters (reference game 1 of series) and Camden is one of top home run producing parks in MLB. 
I'll await your admission that you were wrong for later in season (unlike others we have known, I believe you would admit being wrong. 

Seems like folks in the sports biz lauded the Bears' acquisition of Cutler back in the day as well.  

Trust me, nothing would please me more than to come back here and eat crow after Quintana pitches in the World Series winning game.

Just checked the record (can google jose quintana run support and read article on lack thereof)
Since 2005, 173 pitchers have pitched at least 700 innings. Jose Quintana is 164th in run support. His run support has been 2.26 which means he would receive 2 runs or less in 57% of his starts.
This means that in 3 out of every 5 games he pitched , he was forced to throw a 2 run game for a CHANCE  for a NO-DECISION!

For the record, going wwwaaayyyy back to the old days, I used to argue with the coach about how W/L is one of the worst indicators of the ability of a pitcher, so this is not something of which you have to convince me.

frank bonifacic wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

frank bonifacic wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

frank bonifacic wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

frank bonifacic wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:How did Mr. Hot Garbage look today?  He should do just fine in the NL, especially with getting to face the occasional pitcher.  If he just pitches to his ordinary form baseball card stats, then the Cubs will be very happy to have him.

About as good as hot garbage Arietta looked yesterday.  Baltimore made our 2017 awful pitching and anemic hitting look like 2016.

There is absolutely no reason to think Quintana is anything different from the guy he's been for the last several seasons.  His velocity isn't down.  His stuff is good.  His ERA was inflated due to a couple of pretty horrible starts.  Unless you have ins on some kind of physical problem with him, he should be fine.  He is a very consistent performer.

Whoopie.

Understand if that doesn't excite you, but that isn't the definition of hot garbage.  Mark Buehrle made a hell of a career out of being a solid 2 or great 3, and helped his team win a WS in the process.

The ONLY negative on Quintana has been his W-L record! Since 2013, he has 59 no decisiond which is indicative of the hirseshit run support he had had- also worst run support in MLB in his career. By all numbers one of top 5-10 pitchers in AL and probably near yop 10 in MLB.
You are sounding like a typical Cub fan. " we should get Kershaw - hell we can give them Almora & Russell, maybe throw in Zobrist or a minor leaguer."

The typical Chicago fan thinks we could trade Tommy LaStella straight up for Kershaw.   By contrast, my Sox fan cousin, who believes this was a good trade for both teams, qualifies it by saying "that being said, the Cubs overpaid".  That makes it a bad deal in my book.

Oh, I wasn't aware your Sox fan cousin thought the Cubs overpaid-that changes everything!
Did you hear the announcers on NBC, have you heard from the managers and coaches around the league? Have you heard people talk (including Theo & Jeb) how their desire was for a young, good controllable pitcher-not necessarily for this year but also in future? They got top pitcher on market. And great clubhouse guy.and teammate. Doesn't bitch about close calls to umps, doesn't berate teammates who blow defensive plays-and as Rob mentioned NEVER on DL.


You mentioned sad sack Orioles. They have some decent hitters (reference game 1 of series) and Camden is one of top home run producing parks in MLB. 
I'll await your admission that you were wrong for later in season (unlike others we have known, I believe you would admit being wrong. 

Seems like folks in the sports biz lauded the Bears' acquisition of Cutler back in the day as well.  

Trust me, nothing would please me more than to come back here and eat crow after Quintana pitches in the World Series winning game.

Just checked the record (can google jose quintana run support and read article on lack thereof)
Since 2005, 173 pitchers have pitched at least 700 innings. Jose Quintana is 164th in run support. His run support has been 2.26 which means he would receive 2 runs or less in 57% of his starts.
This means that in 3 out of every 5 games he pitched , he was forced to throw a 2 run game for a CHANCE  for a NO-DECISION!

For the record, going wwwaaayyyy back to the old days, I used to argue with the coach about how W/L is one of the worst indicators of the ability of a pitcher, so this is not something of which you have to convince me.

Wasn't trying to convince you of that, but demonstrate that he is a much better pitcher than you give him credit for- 990 strike outs in a little over 2,000 innings. Plus limited walks.

blondy28 wrote:

frank bonifacic wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

frank bonifacic wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

frank bonifacic wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

frank bonifacic wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:How did Mr. Hot Garbage look today?  He should do just fine in the NL, especially with getting to face the occasional pitcher.  If he just pitches to his ordinary form baseball card stats, then the Cubs will be very happy to have him.

About as good as hot garbage Arietta looked yesterday.  Baltimore made our 2017 awful pitching and anemic hitting look like 2016.

There is absolutely no reason to think Quintana is anything different from the guy he's been for the last several seasons.  His velocity isn't down.  His stuff is good.  His ERA was inflated due to a couple of pretty horrible starts.  Unless you have ins on some kind of physical problem with him, he should be fine.  He is a very consistent performer.

Whoopie.

Understand if that doesn't excite you, but that isn't the definition of hot garbage.  Mark Buehrle made a hell of a career out of being a solid 2 or great 3, and helped his team win a WS in the process.

The ONLY negative on Quintana has been his W-L record! Since 2013, he has 59 no decisiond which is indicative of the hirseshit run support he had had- also worst run support in MLB in his career. By all numbers one of top 5-10 pitchers in AL and probably near yop 10 in MLB.
You are sounding like a typical Cub fan. " we should get Kershaw - hell we can give them Almora & Russell, maybe throw in Zobrist or a minor leaguer."

The typical Chicago fan thinks we could trade Tommy LaStella straight up for Kershaw.   By contrast, my Sox fan cousin, who believes this was a good trade for both teams, qualifies it by saying "that being said, the Cubs overpaid".  That makes it a bad deal in my book.

Oh, I wasn't aware your Sox fan cousin thought the Cubs overpaid-that changes everything!
Did you hear the announcers on NBC, have you heard from the managers and coaches around the league? Have you heard people talk (including Theo & Jeb) how their desire was for a young, good controllable pitcher-not necessarily for this year but also in future? They got top pitcher on market. And great clubhouse guy.and teammate. Doesn't bitch about close calls to umps, doesn't berate teammates who blow defensive plays-and as Rob mentioned NEVER on DL.


You mentioned sad sack Orioles. They have some decent hitters (reference game 1 of series) and Camden is one of top home run producing parks in MLB. 
I'll await your admission that you were wrong for later in season (unlike others we have known, I believe you would admit being wrong. 

Seems like folks in the sports biz lauded the Bears' acquisition of Cutler back in the day as well.  

Trust me, nothing would please me more than to come back here and eat crow after Quintana pitches in the World Series winning game.

Just checked the record (can google jose quintana run support and read article on lack thereof)
Since 2005, 173 pitchers have pitched at least 700 innings. Jose Quintana is 164th in run support. His run support has been 2.26 which means he would receive 2 runs or less in 57% of his starts.
This means that in 3 out of every 5 games he pitched , he was forced to throw a 2 run game for a CHANCE  for a NO-DECISION!

For the record, going wwwaaayyyy back to the old days, I used to argue with the coach about how W/L is one of the worst indicators of the ability of a pitcher, so this is not something of which you have to convince me.

Wasn't trying to convince you of that, but demonstrate that he is a much better pitcher than you give him credit for- 990 strike outs in a little over 2,000 innings. Plus limited walks.

I could not be less impressed with Quintana.

SoxIlliniRob wrote:He should be fine.  WHIP is fantastic.  Throwing too many pitches.  He is a control guy with Mark Buehrle type of stuff, but hitters are taking him really deep in counts.  Unless he is hurt, he will be fine in long run.  Jimenez is tearing it up in the minors, so I understand the consternation.

sharpy wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:He should be fine.  WHIP is fantastic.  Throwing too many pitches.  He is a control guy with Mark Buehrle type of stuff, but hitters are taking him really deep in counts.  Unless he is hurt, he will be fine in long run.  Jimenez is tearing it up in the minors, so I understand the consternation.

He'll be fine in that he will pitch just well enough or bad enough to lose. 4.20 ERA and a WAR of 1.3 is not why the Cubs gave up their best prospects 

sharpy wrote:You're looking at a single year sample size and ignoring a very solid career.  I'm not sure if he'll ever be a guy that wins a lot of games, just for some of the reasons you've noted, but he's a better pitcher than the numbers you note above.

He's one of these guys who just does not win, and his team, does not win. Why? I don't know. He gives up 2 runs, sox scored 1, he gave up 3, Sox scored 2.  Sox score 5, he gives up 6..always just not enough to win - Sale, with the same team, didn't seem to have an issue with team wins. Quintana for some reason, does. He reminds me of Bronson arroyo - who has a similar lifetime WAR but is 11 games over .500 for a career but would pitch outstanding every so often, and just well enough to lose other times, and then other times, stink out the joint. 

let me ask you this - In the past 6 yrs, you have one game to win the championship, does Quintana's name even jump into your head as the guy you want out there? 

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

sharpy wrote:You're looking at a single year sample size and ignoring a very solid career.  I'm not sure if he'll ever be a guy that wins a lot of games, just for some of the reasons you've noted, but he's a better pitcher than the numbers you note above.

He's one of these guys who just does not win, and his team, does not win. Why? I don't know. He gives up 2 runs, sox scored 1, he gave up 3, Sox scored 2.  Sox score 5, he gives up 6..always just not enough to win - Sale, with the same team, didn't seem to have an issue with team wins. Quintana for some reason, does. He reminds me of Bronson arroyo - who has a similar lifetime WAR but is 11 games over .500 for a career but would pitch outstanding every so often, and just well enough to lose other times, and then other times, stink out the joint. 

let me ask you this - In the past 6 yrs, you have one game to win the championship, does Quintana's name even jump into your head as the guy you want out there? 

No, but he's never been that kind of pitcher.  I've always viewed him as a solid #2 or a good #3.  If we're talking about a championship game, I want a future hall of famer on the mound. 

SoxIlliniRob wrote:Geesh, he's 3-2 with the Cubs, with a 3.86 ERA.  That puts him squarely in the middle of the Cubs rotation.  He's giving up easily less than a hit per inning, and has a great WHIP with the Cubs.  I get it that you hated giving up Jimenez for him.  I'd hate that, too.  But as soon as he stops running his pitch counts so high (a newer trend for him), he'll go back to lasting deeper into games.  He has been a quality starts machine for five years now.  With the Cubs' hitting, that ought to be a pretty good thing.

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:Geesh, he's 3-2 with the Cubs, with a 3.86 ERA.  That puts him squarely in the middle of the Cubs rotation.  He's giving up easily less than a hit per inning, and has a great WHIP with the Cubs.  I get it that you hated giving up Jimenez for him.  I'd hate that, too.  But as soon as he stops running his pitch counts so high (a newer trend for him), he'll go back to lasting deeper into games.  He has been a quality starts machine for five years now.  With the Cubs' hitting, that ought to be a pretty good thing.

Two words.  LaTroy Hawkins.  His "new trend" with the Cubs became the norm.   I don't care what the numbers say.  You can use numbers to make almost any argument.  Heck, last night's piss poor performance was a win with a relatively low ERA, and the fact is he looked flat out awful and if not for a great swipe tag by Javy to cancel a base runner at second and Javy turning a pretty incredible double play, you'd be looking at a no decision AT BEST, since he probably wouldn't have pitched deep enough to have factored.  His numbers put him in the middle of the rotation.  The eye test since he's been on the Cubs (which is pretty much post-injury for both Lackey and Hendricks) puts him dead last.

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:Geesh, he's 3-2 with the Cubs, with a 3.86 ERA.  That puts him squarely in the middle of the Cubs rotation.  He's giving up easily less than a hit per inning, and has a great WHIP with the Cubs.  I get it that you hated giving up Jimenez for him.  I'd hate that, too.  But as soon as he stops running his pitch counts so high (a newer trend for him), he'll go back to lasting deeper into games.  He has been a quality starts machine for five years now.  With the Cubs' hitting, that ought to be a pretty good thing.

Two words.  LaTroy Hawkins.  His "new trend" with the Cubs became the norm.   I don't care what the numbers say.  You can use numbers to make almost any argument.  Heck, last night's piss poor performance was a win with a relatively low ERA, and the fact is he looked flat out awful and if not for a great swipe tag by Javy to cancel a base runner at second and Javy turning a pretty incredible double play, you'd be looking at a no decision AT BEST, since he probably wouldn't have pitched deep enough to have factored.  His numbers put him in the middle of the rotation.  The eye test since he's been on the Cubs (which is pretty much post-injury for both Lackey and Hendricks) puts him dead last.

I thought he looked impressive last night.  Had pinpoint control with his fastball, but sometimes someone's best pitch still gets hit.  I believe he only gave up 3 or 4 hits.  Trouble last night was that he couldn't put anyone away.  Foul.  Foul.  Foul.  Foul.  My son goes through this sometimes, too, and ends up with a high pitch count.  If I were going to have a concern about Q, it'd be that I see his fastball topping at 91'ish, which is lower than what I've seen of him in prior seasons when he'd coast at 92-93 and then top at 94-95 sometimes.  Maybe he's sore, or getting old, or mechanically unsound right now.  You're definitely seeing the worst of him over the past several years, though.  

SoxIlliniRob wrote:I honestly didn't watch the first two innings.  LOL.  I watched the 3rd inning until the end, and when I watched him he was hitting spots, corners, and freezing hitters.  Your point is valid in that most of his trouble when he played here seemed to come in the first or second innings.  The kind of guy that if he came out of the early innings unscathed, he'd usually go into cruise control.  Maybe he's just having an off-season, but his career numbers are pretty reliable.

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

blondy28 wrote:

SoxIlliniRob wrote:Geesh, he's 3-2 with the Cubs, with a 3.86 ERA.  That puts him squarely in the middle of the Cubs rotation.  He's giving up easily less than a hit per inning, and has a great WHIP with the Cubs.  I get it that you hated giving up Jimenez for him.  I'd hate that, too.  But as soon as he stops running his pitch counts so high (a newer trend for him), he'll go back to lasting deeper into games.  He has been a quality starts machine for five years now.  With the Cubs' hitting, that ought to be a pretty good thing.

Two words.  LaTroy Hawkins.  His "new trend" with the Cubs became the norm.   I don't care what the numbers say.  You can use numbers to make almost any argument.  Heck, last night's piss poor performance was a win with a relatively low ERA, and the fact is he looked flat out awful and if not for a great swipe tag by Javy to cancel a base runner at second and Javy turning a pretty incredible double play, you'd be looking at a no decision AT BEST, since he probably wouldn't have pitched deep enough to have factored.  His numbers put him in the middle of the rotation.  The eye test since he's been on the Cubs (which is pretty much post-injury for both Lackey and Hendricks) puts him dead last.

I thought he looked impressive last night.  Had pinpoint control with his fastball, but sometimes someone's best pitch still gets hit.  I believe he only gave up 3 or 4 hits.  Trouble last night was that he couldn't put anyone away.  Foul.  Foul.  Foul.  Foul.  My son goes through this sometimes, too, and ends up with a high pitch count.  If I were going to have a concern about Q, it'd be that I see his fastball topping at 91'ish, which is lower than what I've seen of him in prior seasons when he'd coast at 92-93 and then top at 94-95 sometimes.  Maybe he's sore, or getting old, or mechanically unsound right now.  You're definitely seeing the worst of him over the past several years, though.  

alohafri wrote:Maybe Hahn outsmarted the Boy Wonder.

SoxIlliniRob wrote:

alohafri wrote:Maybe Hahn outsmarted the Boy Wonder.

That would be ok, too.  Quintana might be injured to some degree, also, or just going through a stretch of soreness or ineffectiveness.  Who knows?

alohafri wrote:Maybe Hahn outsmarted the Boy Wonder.

SoxIlliniRob wrote:Just checked Cubs pitching stats.  Granted this is what I consider a small sample size (about a third of a season) thus far, but right now Q ranks as follows:
 
#1 WHIP in Cub rotation
#1 K/9 in rotation
#1 W/L percentage (record since joining the Cubs)
#3 ERA in rotation
#4 WAR in rotation, but almost tied with #3 WAR, just .1 behind Lackey

In fairness, I cherry picked these stats.  I'm sure some stats exist that would paint a less flattering picture, such as how high his pitch counts get after five or six innings.  

I'm just noting this to point out that while Q hasn't looked to me at all like the guy he used to be with the Sox the last few seasons, he is very much holding his own in this rotation and seems almost a perfect fit.  If he goes out and bombs in his next outing, his small sample size will mean he falls precipitously in all of these rankings, but if he tosses a shutout, he'll further solidify himself as a top of the Cub rotation guy.  In the end, it'll come down to how he does in these next couple of weeks and the playoffs to determine if the trade was worth it.  If he pitches his ass off in the postseason and at least gets the Cubs to another World Series, then it was worth it.