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    Interesting column

    alohafri
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    Post by alohafri Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:46 pm

    From conservative Kathleen Parker...

    When F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote, "Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me," he inadvertently foreshadowed the government shutdown of 2018-19. 

    Fitzgerald was alluding to the wealthy class, which he had earlier portrayed in "The Great Gatsby," the great American novel. Old money is also different from newly made fortunes, as Jay Gatsby himself discovered during his futile attempts to buy acceptance. 

    But Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross' recent comment about furloughed government employees -- that he didn't "really quite understand" why unpaid workers were visiting food banks -- confirmed Fitzgerald's point. The very wealthy are different -- and they think differently. 

    Ross furthered his disassociation from reality, saying that "the obligations that they [federal employees] would undertake -- say, borrowing from a bank or a credit union -- are, in effect, federally guaranteed, so the 30 days of pay that some people will be out is no real reason why they shouldn't be able to get a loan against it." 

    Yes, quite, quite. 

    Then again, if you've never lived paycheck to paycheck, as nearly 80 percent of Americans do, you might not be expected to really quite understand what it's like. Although some banks have, indeed, been helping out with zero- to low-interest loans, it wasn't clear that everyone would be eligible. Even the fully employed suffer less-than-perfect credit. 

    The notion, meanwhile, that all will be rectified in due course is cold comfort when you can't meet your financial obligations. Now that the government is reopened -- for three more weeks, at least -- federal employees are still likely to face days of paperwork and telephone roulette as they try to correct their credit history and satisfy debtors. 

    This isn't end-of-world stuff, obviously, but the shutdown certainly wasn't a "vacation," as President Trump's chief economic adviser, Kevin Hassett, suggested. Ross, who made his billions partly by buying distressed debt further revealed his own cluelessness by dryly noting that the 800,000 furloughed and unpaid workers represent only one-third of 1 percent of our gross domestic product. 

    Why all the sad faces? 

    Thanks to Fitzgerald, we learn that being blessed with wealth "does something to them ... that, unless you were born rich, it is very difficult to understand." Which is to say, we have a failure of mutual understanding. 

    Ross and Trump are primarily businessmen and, thus, perhaps see people more as commodities than human beings. Despair is a market fluctuation that cool investors simply wait out. And massive inconvenience for the ordinary working stiff is represented as dots and jagged lines on a spreadsheet. 

    Nevertheless, Trump, whose philanthropic pursuits end where the casino parking lot begins, felt compelled to rich-splain the commerce secretary, saying that although he hadn't heard Ross' statement, "I do understand that perhaps he should have said it differently. Local people know who they are when they go for groceries and everything else. And I think what Wilbur was probably trying to say is that they will work along." 

    Here's the sad part: I know what Trump meant. After two or more years of listening to "Trumplish," a linguistic pattern of half-thoughts, sentence fragments and primary wordplay, one begins to get the hang of it. In this case, there's actually some consolation folded into Trump's translation of Wilburnomics: "Local people know who they are," even if Ross doesn't. 

    Locals and nonlocals alike also know who forced the government to shut down over an unpopular, expensive and likely ineffective border wall. Compute this: Landowner lawsuits and appeals over eminent domain could last years; construction of 1,000 miles of steel barriers could take a decade; and technology gallops along. How soon before passenger drones are delivering migrants to Oklahoma? 

    This may seem far-fetched, but so, too, were mobile phones not so long ago. 

    Meanwhile, we face problems more pressing than our dysfunctional government. Recent polling shows that America may be drifting away from capitalism and toward socialism. In 2018, Gallup found that fewer than half of young Americans view capitalism positively and 51 percent view socialism favorably. A Fox News poll released Thursday found that 40 percent of Democrats think a move toward socialism would be a good thing and only 34 percent disagreed. 

    Republicans are against a socialist shift (80 percent), but they also tend to correspond to a graying demographic. 

    When the very rich are exposed as removed and oblivious to American daily life, it becomes far easier for socialists to make their ideas, such as wealth redistribution, attractive. Ironically, Trump's true legacy may not be the wall but the fall. 
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    Post by SoxIlliniRob Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:23 pm

    Interesting read, although it's all things I've mostly thought for quite some time all nicely put into words.  

    As for you, Kevin...don't just share a read like this.  Give us your take, mister.  I find myself curious, knowing you've been mostly a red voter over the years.  Are you shifting or just really annoyed at the red hats at the current moment?
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    Post by sharpy Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:31 pm

    Recent polling shows that America may be drifting away from capitalism and toward socialism. In 2018, Gallup found that fewer than half of young Americans view capitalism positively and 51 percent view socialism favorably. A Fox News poll released Thursday found that 40 percent of Democrats think a move toward socialism would be a good thing and only 34 percent disagreed. 

    I think the explanation as to why people who used to make up the middle class and their children are leaning toward socialism is b/c they don't think they can get anywhere in a capitalistic society b/c the system is rigged. When I was a kid, nobody was aware of all these billionaires - people just wanted to make a decent living and if one of theirs hit it big and became a millionaire, they weren't jealous, they were happy for them and even realized that it was possible for them to maybe do that as well. Now they see the rich and realized there is no way they can get there. They see people who  offer nothing to society, who do nothing, or make nothing better, like the kardashians, or the Trumps, and they realize that something is wrong with this system, and they want it fixed, and they want their due for being the nurses, and the fireman, and the factory worker etc -  they don't want to go broke b/c they got sick and didn't have health insurance b/c the CEO of Aetna needed to make $6 million a year instead of making premiums affordable.  And they ask themselves, - what has capitalism done for me?  What can capitalism do to  make me whole?  and they realize, probably nothing - because the Roger Stones and Donald Trumps of the world will squash you and take what  you made.  People want equality and they want a sense of fairness and  an even playing field. In the past, the feeling this was not obtainable was limited to blacks - but now, the middle and lower class whites are finally realizing they  are in the same boat. And that boat is sinking.
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    Post by alohafri Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:46 pm

    SoxIlliniRob wrote:Interesting read, although it's all things I've mostly thought for quite some time all nicely put into words.  

    As for you, Kevin...don't just share a read like this.  Give us your take, mister.  I find myself curious, knowing you've been mostly a red voter over the years.  Are you shifting or just really annoyed at the red hats at the current moment?

    I'm annoyed at both parties, but in particular the Republicans. Both parties are becoming "small tent" parties. It appears that the crazies in both parties are taking over.


    My point is posting this is that Parker is a conservative columnist, but I'm sure the Trump/Hannity/Ingraham nuts will consider her a closet lib like they do George Will, Michael Steele, John Kasich, and Jeff Flake. She speaks the truth.
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    Post by SoxIlliniRob Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:29 pm

    alohafri wrote:


    I'm annoyed at both parties, but in particular the Republicans. Both parties are becoming "small tent" parties. It appears that the crazies in both parties are taking over.


    I think I disagree with you in terms of both sides of the blue and red coin when you note that the crazies are taking over.  The GOP strikes me as being fairly uniform in its ideology.  Are you sure those are the crazies, or is that just the GOP?  It's beginning to look to me like the GOP crazies (the ones that are off of the GOP tracks) are the ones that defy Trump.  That's what, Murkowski, sometimes Collins, Flake and Corker before they left, and the Colorado Senator whose name escapes me?  They are the ones on the edge of the party.  You are probably considered a crazy within the GOP because you are way out of step with them now.  Maybe when 80-85% of the party goes down the same road you can't call them the crazies anymore.  They are the norm.  You and all of your moderation are now the exception.  

    Similarly, the Dems all strike me as being pretty uniform right now.  Are there any Dems really going off the tracks of what the Dem party stands for right now?  Maybe Manchin at times (as he probably is trying to pander a bit to conservative WV)?  You might be thinking AOC.  Is she off the tracks of the Dem ideology?  Maybe some, but I can pretty much assure you that her ideology is pretty straight Dem ideology, only that some Dems aren't yet comfortable openly espousing for 70% taxes on the filthy rich or for universal healthcare.  But just because they don't openly espouse, they privately espouse.  I've always thought Obama didn't evolve on marriage equality.  He just waited until it was politically convenient to support it.  Most of what AOC, Kamala, or Warren or Sanders says is what is now the popular stance.  More than half of the populace supports a high tax on the top margins of the filthy rich.  Most of the US wants universal healthcare.  AOC is just saying it loudly instead of keeping it under wraps.  She realizes that this is where her generation is and that the grayhairs are dying off and going to leave a bunch of folks like me, who are open to universal healthcare, and the young generation, who wonder what the fuck we are waiting for.  I'm just saying I don't think that the Dems are being taken over by the crazies.  I just think the Dems are beginning to get more bold about their ideology because they see where the younger generation wants this all to go.  The Dems might actually be testing the waters to see if this kind of approach might excite the youth enough to make them begin voting and participating.  If it does, the GOP will need to completely reform it's platform to compete.  

    It'd still be interesting to hear your take on why you think the crazies are crazy.  You obviously think the people making the noise in each party are the exception, whereas I think they are the rule.  Not trying to give you shit.  It's hard on the internet but I'm attempting to have an honest conversation, as I've found myself thinking about these observations a lot in my quiet moments.  It seems to me like we're going in the direction Cream has often warned about....political revolution.  This is beginning to feel to me like the start of a movement in a progressive direction.  Granted, I might just be having fever dreams, but I'm sensing that the old guard is a dying entity and that the millennials and the younger generations are about to take us in a very European direction.  Might just be wishful thinking....I'm beginning to think the only thing holding the GOP together right now is a combination of racism (and i don't say that to imply that Repubs are uniformly racist) and hatred of abortion.
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    Post by alohafri Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:26 pm

    As you are seeing with the current crop of Republican nuts (as pointed out by Kathleen Parker), what people "want" is not what they are going to get, nor is it often feasible. Trump can cry all he want about how much he wants a wall, but he ain't getting it. Cortez can whine about how much she and her generation want whatever she's yapping about, but they ain't getting it either.

    Trump supporters are the crazies. Does it appear that there are more of them than the Murkowskies and Collinses? It does, but that's because they are louder and more angry. When people speak angrily, they speak passionately and when they speak passionately, people believe they are telling the truth. It doesn't make them any less crazy. Are you suggesting that because they may be in the "majority" (emphasis on may be) that people like Alex Jones, Sean Hannity, and Jeannie Pirro aren't crazy?


    What do what I call the "crazy" (maybe a better word would be extreme) do that makes that makes them able to spread their message? They make people believe that they are in a situation because someone else is to blame. Give them an enemy, someone to blame.  You are in this position because of the "libs". They are making your life miserable. They are your enemy. You are in this position because of the "rich". They are making your life miserable. They are your enemy. You are in this position because of the immigrants. They are making your life miserable. They are your enemy. You are in this position because of the "conservanazis". They are making your life miserable. They are your enemy. Well, in the words of that great philosopher Pogo, we have met the enemy and he is us.
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    Post by SoxIlliniRob Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:54 pm

    alohafri wrote:As you are seeing with the current crop of Republican nuts (as pointed out by Kathleen Parker), what people "want" is not what they are going to get, nor is it often feasible. Trump can cry all he want about how much he wants a wall, but he ain't getting it. Cortez can whine about how much she and her generation want whatever she's yapping about, but they ain't getting it either.

    Trump supporters are the crazies. Does it appear that there are more of them than the Murkowskies and Collinses? It does, but that's because they are louder and more angry. When people speak angrily, they speak passionately and when they speak passionately, people believe they are telling the truth. It doesn't make them any less crazy. Are you suggesting that because they may be in the "majority" (emphasis on may be) that people like Alex Jones, Sean Hannity, and Jeannie Pirro aren't crazy?


    What do what I call the "crazy" (maybe a better word would be extreme) do that makes that makes them able to spread their message? They make people believe that they are in a situation because someone else is to blame. Give them an enemy, someone to blame.  You are in this position because of the "libs". They are making your life miserable. They are your enemy. You are in this position because of the "rich". They are making your life miserable. They are your enemy. You are in this position because of the immigrants. They are making your life miserable. They are your enemy. You are in this position because of the "conservanazis". They are making your life miserable. They are your enemy. Well, in the words of that great philosopher Pogo, we have met the enemy and he is us.

    Oh, I definitely think people like Alex Jones and Pirro are crazy, but I also think they are now the mainstream (maybe not Jones) of the GOP.  I network and socialize with hundreds of Repubs.  Most of them are fully behind Trump and speak the same opinions that I hear out of Pirro, Hannity, Carlson, etc.  Most of them are mad at people like Kasich, Romney, Murkowski, etc.  

    It's a gray kind of area.  I think that pretty much the whole party has gone crazy, aside from a few like you.  Seems to me that Trump has dragged 85% of the GOP over the cliff with him such that you are now the exception to the party, instead of a part of the party.  So I'm only making my point hypothetically and in theory, i.e. that you are now the crazy person in the GOP by being so out of step with the bulk of the party.
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    Post by SoxIlliniRob Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:18 pm

    Oh, and I do think that before Cortez is out of politics that we will very much see some higher top margin taxes on mega earners, and either universal healthcare and free college, or some derivation of such (i.e. Medicare beginning at an earlier age, like 40 or 50...).  AOC's platform is a majority platform.  She's not spouting off about things that don't have popular support.  There is majority American support for universal care, for free community college, for higher min wage, for higher taxes on the rich.  Careful not to conflate Pirro's nuttiness, or Alex Jones' nuttiness, with AOC's.  The only thing nutty about AOC is she's saying things that the rest of her party wants to say, but are politically afraid (the way Obama was afraid to support marriage equality) to say.
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    Post by sharpy Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:06 pm

    Your political career is going to be short if you come in and claim to want free healthcare, free college, tax the rich and the big corporations.  Any or all of these will lead to revolt and to voting against those ideas, even if at one time you believed in them. Radical change is very difficult to do in this country b/c it is republic and not a democracy and states who don't believe in these topics have as much say, if not more, the senate and quite a bit of say in the House. I also don't believe that the GOP whackjobs are in the majority. I think the 40% who vote for Trump and the super rich who manipulate the dumb and ignorant to get what they want turn the remaining 50-55% GOPers into a silent majority who are stuck  and don't know what to do or how to overcome these people.  As for Cortex, she might want to spend more time learning how government works, and actually, I don't know, doing something, before hanging out at the Sundance Film Festival, showing up on Evening talk shows or discussing her skin care and what products she is currently using, because if she doesn't wake up, in 2 yrs she'll be back at whatever job she had before this one.  Her district elected her thinking they needed the anti-trump, she was cute, energetic, and excited - when she doesn't do shit x 2 yrs, they will go back to the typical democrat 

    As bad as Trump is, it is clear how the Dems are blowing 2020 right to hell
    - warren - crazy left, no chance of winning, independents will run from her faster than  a  bullet 
    - Harris - not enough experience, a black female has NO chance in this trump world, and when she doesn't get the nomination, blacks will stay home and the Dems lose 
    - Schultz - billionaire - commercials galore, - runs as an independent and ciphons off 15-20% of the Democratic vote and the Dems lose - Ralph Nader all over again ..
    OH - and lets not forget Bernie ..who will lose the primaries again and sabotage whoever does get the nomination b/c hes an egotistical petulant child
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    Post by SoxIlliniRob Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:17 pm

    sharpy wrote:Your political career is going to be short if you come in and claim to want free healthcare, free college, tax the rich and the big corporations.  Any or all of these will lead to revolt and to voting against those ideas, even if at one time you believed in them. Radical change is very difficult to do in this country b/c it is republic and not a democracy and states who don't believe in these topics have as much say, if not more, the senate and quite a bit of say in the House. I also don't believe that the GOP whackjobs are in the majority. I think the 40% who vote for Trump and the super rich who manipulate the dumb and ignorant to get what they want turn the remaining 50-55% GOPers into a silent majority who are stuck  and don't know what to do or how to overcome these people.  As for Cortex, she might want to spend more time learning how government works, and actually, I don't know, doing something, before hanging out at the Sundance Film Festival, showing up on Evening talk shows or discussing her skin care and what products she is currently using, because if she doesn't wake up, in 2 yrs she'll be back at whatever job she had before this one.  Her district elected her thinking they needed the anti-trump, she was cute, energetic, and excited - when she doesn't do shit x 2 yrs, they will go back to the typical democrat 

    As bad as Trump is, it is clear how the Dems are blowing 2020 right to hell
    - warren - crazy left, no chance of winning, independents will run from her faster than  a  bullet 
    - Harris - not enough experience, a black female has NO chance in this trump world, and when she doesn't get the nomination, blacks will stay home and the Dems lose 
    - Schultz - billionaire - commercials galore, - runs as an independent and ciphons off 15-20% of the Democratic vote and the Dems lose - Ralph Nader all over again ..
    OH - and lets not forget Bernie ..who will lose the primaries again and sabotage whoever does get the nomination b/c hes an egotistical petulant child

    I'm not willing to rule out Harris just yet.  If she gets the nomination, she's going to get pretty good support.  Originally, I wasn't thrilled about her running, but what I've seen of her recently has been very strong.  Strong enough that it's making me become possibly excited to vote for her.  She's had a couple of electrifying appearances with strong support.  If a black man could win, then I think a black woman can win.  I honestly don't think it'll be Trump running in 2020.  It's hard to believe he'll still be in office by then.  It's too early to get all down in the dumps just yet about how the Dems will screw this up.  They absolutely MIGHT screw it up, but it's early to make that declaration just yet.  Lotta shit gonna happen in the next 2 yrs and we have no idea how it'll affect the primaries and the general election between Pence and whichever Dem gets nominated.

    It's hard to see Warren as having a chance in hell.  Biden strikes me as having the strongest resume and best chance, but Harris is beginning to seem like she can put up a solid challenge to him.

    of course all of this may be rendered moot anyway, since our elections place more value on land than people due to an electoral system that was crafted to placate slaveholders.
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    Post by cream919 Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:13 pm

    I just wanna say that while I don't always agree with her I like Kathleen Parker. A reasonable republican...a rare breed indeed.
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    Post by jaywit Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:59 pm

    sharpy wrote:Your political career is going to be short if you come in and claim to want free healthcare, free college, tax the rich and the big corporations.  Any or all of these will lead to revolt and to voting against those ideas, even if at one time you believed in them. Radical change is very difficult to do in this country b/c it is republic and not a democracy and states who don't believe in these topics have as much say, if not more, the senate and quite a bit of say in the House. I also don't believe that the GOP whackjobs are in the majority. I think the 40% who vote for Trump and the super rich who manipulate the dumb and ignorant to get what they want turn the remaining 50-55% GOPers into a silent majority who are stuck  and don't know what to do or how to overcome these people.  As for Cortex, she might want to spend more time learning how government works, and actually, I don't know, doing something, before hanging out at the Sundance Film Festival, showing up on Evening talk shows or discussing her skin care and what products she is currently using, because if she doesn't wake up, in 2 yrs she'll be back at whatever job she had before this one.  Her district elected her thinking they needed the anti-trump, she was cute, energetic, and excited - when she doesn't do shit x 2 yrs, they will go back to the typical democrat 

    As bad as Trump is, it is clear how the Dems are blowing 2020 right to hell
    - warren - crazy left, no chance of winning, independents will run from her faster than  a  bullet 
    - Harris - not enough experience, a black female has NO chance in this trump world, and when she doesn't get the nomination, blacks will stay home and the Dems lose 
    - Schultz - billionaire - commercials galore, - runs as an independent and ciphons off 15-20% of the Democratic vote and the Dems lose - Ralph Nader all over again ..
    OH - and lets not forget Bernie ..who will lose the primaries again and sabotage whoever does get the nomination b/c hes an egotistical petulant child
    At this time, pulling for someone for the 2020 election is akin to the 2019-2020 AP rankings of college football teams released the day after Clemson beat Alabama.  That said, I am liking what I've read about Tulsi Gabbard.  Independent thinker, doesn't always toe the party line and I agree with most of her basic stances.  Long-shottedness of her campaign is realized, though.  First, she's a she.  Second, she's non-white.  Third, she's Hindu.  Fourth, she'll carry only Hawai'i.  OTOH, in 2012, what odds would you have given Trump to be president come 2017?
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    Post by jaywit Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:07 pm

    cream919 wrote:I just wanna say that while I don't always agree with her I like Kathleen Parker. A reasonable republican...a rare breed indeed.
    I don't remember examples but I recall her columns that were written during the Obama years seemed biased to me.  Even though I lean right at times, I thought some of her columns seemed to try to stretch to put Obama in a bad light.  



    The article in question is a good piece.
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    Post by SoxIlliniRob Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:06 pm

    jaywit wrote:

    At this time, pulling for someone for the 2020 election is akin to the 2019-2020 AP rankings of college football teams released the day after Clemson beat Alabama.  That said, I am liking what I've read about Tulsi Gabbard.  Independent thinker, doesn't always toe the party line and I agree with most of her basic stances.  Long-shottedness of her campaign is realized, though.  First, she's a she.  Second, she's non-white.  Third, she's Hindu.  Fourth, she'll carry only Hawai'i.  OTOH, in 2012, what odds would you have given Trump to be president come 2017?

    The problem she may run into is that from the sounds of it, there are a lot of Dems that can't stand her.  When she announced her campaign, I noticed that half of the Dems on Twitter were claiming that she was toast because even her own party can't stand her.  I don't particularly know why....
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    Post by jaywit Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:58 pm

    SoxIlliniRob wrote:
    jaywit wrote:

    At this time, pulling for someone for the 2020 election is akin to the 2019-2020 AP rankings of college football teams released the day after Clemson beat Alabama.  That said, I am liking what I've read about Tulsi Gabbard.  Independent thinker, doesn't always toe the party line and I agree with most of her basic stances.  Long-shottedness of her campaign is realized, though.  First, she's a she.  Second, she's non-white.  Third, she's Hindu.  Fourth, she'll carry only Hawai'i.  OTOH, in 2012, what odds would you have given Trump to be president come 2017?

    The problem she may run into is that from the sounds of it, there are a lot of Dems that can't stand her.  When she announced her campaign, I noticed that half of the Dems on Twitter were claiming that she was toast because even her own party can't stand her.  I don't particularly know why....
    Maybe it's the independent streak and refusal to toe the line.  Maybe it's because she supported Sanders over Clinton.  Possibly it's because of her prior stance on marriage equality.  Yesterday's Wall Street Journal editorial on her wasn't dismissive and acknowledged several interesting talking points.  Not bad for a right leaning publication.  I'm not committing to this individual.  I've just read enough to want to read more.
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    Post by SoxIlliniRob Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:10 pm

    jaywit wrote:
    SoxIlliniRob wrote:


    The problem she may run into is that from the sounds of it, there are a lot of Dems that can't stand her.  When she announced her campaign, I noticed that half of the Dems on Twitter were claiming that she was toast because even her own party can't stand her.  I don't particularly know why....
    Maybe it's the independent streak and refusal to toe the line.  Maybe it's because she supported Sanders over Clinton.  Possibly it's because of her prior stance on marriage equality.  Yesterday's Wall Street Journal editorial on her wasn't dismissive and acknowledged several interesting talking points.  Not bad for a right leaning publication.  I'm not committing to this individual.  I've just read enough to want to read more.

    Oh, I understood your point.  You were just sharing what you'd read and heard.  Didn't take it to be a stamp of approval from you.  Thus far, I've been impressed by Harris' efforts probably a bit more than I expected to be.  Figured I'd just find her to be serious and kind of angry and not have much of a clear message.  So far, her message has been strong and pretty clear.  I've had a few centrist friends that typically vote GOP tell me they really like her and think they are going to end up leaning in her direction unless she says or does something to screw it up.  A couple of these friends are people that voted for Reagan and both Bushes and who hold all of those folks in very high esteem.

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