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    jaywit
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    Post by jaywit Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:44 am

    As the US surrender unfolds, it's heartbreaking to see what's happening/going to happen to the women and girls in Afghanistan.  Basically, outright surrender is what it is.  About a year or so ago I went to a public presentation by ambassador Ryan Crocker who gave his opinion on plans for a US pullout and he said that it will amount to nothing short of a US surrender.  He knows the people over there and he knew the Taliban was just biding their time knowing that eventually the US would leave.  Blinken's statement of we accomplished what we set out for and that this is not like a Vietnam surrender is laughable.  The Taliban is going to celebrate their victory by shaming the US and beheading their domestic enemies (and probably a few reporters here and there).


    Basically, a generation of females with the freedom of education and employment are having that ripped away and to be turned into virtual slaves.  


    20 years of training and new military equipment and the Afghan army falls like a deck of cards.  I agree with the sentiment that had we stayed 1 year, 5 years or 20 more years before pulling out, the outcome would be the same.  However, we would have at least allowed a 2nd generation of Afghan females to live unenslaved.


    It's just tragic and I don't know what the answer is.  Ignore it until the next 9/11 comes along?  I know one thing the US should do.  We should be evacuating without hesitation any individual who has remotely assisted the US in this mission.  This is based not only upon a moral responsibility but also to save some semblance of being respectful partner to the citizenry of future nations we plan to invade.






    And the pictures of the Taliban in the Afghan president's office eerily similar to the traitors in the Capitol on 1/6/2021.
    sharpy
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    Post by sharpy Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:06 pm

    Agree with you completely Jay, another USA loss. It really frustrates me how this country "goes to war". Shouldn't war be a complete undertaking and not some half-assed effort that allows the same group of young me to go back and forth.  If the government of this country wants or needs to start a war - then the President should ask for it, the Congress should declare it, and the COUNTRY goes to war - that means a draft, rationing, war time economy - and we go in and win the fucking thing as fast as possible and make sure that the losers aren't smoldering somewhere to take over the second we leave.  For Crissake, this is like us leaving Germany in 1945 with the knowledge the Nazi's are just waiting for us to leave ..."oh well Jews - we gave ya few good years"
    SoxIlliniRob
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    Post by SoxIlliniRob Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:31 am

    sharpy wrote:Agree with you completely Jay, another USA loss. It really frustrates me how this country "goes to war". Shouldn't war be a complete undertaking and not some half-assed effort that allows the same group of young me to go back and forth.  If the government of this country wants or needs to start a war - then the President should ask for it, the Congress should declare it, and the COUNTRY goes to war - that means a draft, rationing, war time economy - and we go in and win the fucking thing as fast as possible and make sure that the losers aren't smoldering somewhere to take over the second we leave.  For Crissake, this is like us leaving Germany in 1945 with the knowledge the Nazi's are just waiting for us to leave ..."oh well Jews - we gave ya few good years"

    True, except that we have been there for 20 yrs.  You'd think in that amount of time that they'd grow accustomed enough to the more western way of life that they'd not just cede their weapons and their government over to a bunch of theocratic lunatics.  I mean, those dudes just giving the country over to the Taliban have wifes and daughters in that country and will now have to accept their family having to abide by the new rule.
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    Post by sharpy Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:32 pm

    True, except that we have been there for 20 yrs.  You'd think in that amount of time that they'd grow accustomed enough to the more western way of life that they'd not just cede their weapons and their government over to a bunch of theocratic lunatics.  I mean, those dudes just giving the country over to the Taliban have wifes and daughters in that country and will now have to accept their family having to abide by the new rule.




    You have to have a cause that you are willing to die for .. and clearly the men in Afghanistan, do not 
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    jaywit
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    Post by jaywit Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:44 am

    sharpy wrote:True, except that we have been there for 20 yrs.  You'd think in that amount of time that they'd grow accustomed enough to the more western way of life that they'd not just cede their weapons and their government over to a bunch of theocratic lunatics.  I mean, those dudes just giving the country over to the Taliban have wifes and daughters in that country and will now have to accept their family having to abide by the new rule.




    You have to have a cause that you are willing to die for .. and clearly the men in Afghanistan, do not 
    Right.  Maybe we should have stayed long enough for the Afghani women to take control.  They seem to have a lot more courage than the men.



    It strikes me as ominous that the Taliban have been talking the talk about improving women's rights and opportunities.  Yet, has anyone seen a Taliban woman at any of the press conferences?  It truly is heartbreaking to me to think that so many millions of women's lives have been destroyed in the time span of a few weeks.
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    Post by jaywit Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:49 am

    sharpy wrote:Agree with you completely Jay, another USA loss. It really frustrates me how this country "goes to war". Shouldn't war be a complete undertaking and not some half-assed effort that allows the same group of young me to go back and forth.  If the government of this country wants or needs to start a war - then the President should ask for it, the Congress should declare it, and the COUNTRY goes to war - that means a draft, rationing, war time economy - and we go in and win the fucking thing as fast as possible and make sure that the losers aren't smoldering somewhere to take over the second we leave.  For Crissake, this is like us leaving Germany in 1945 with the knowledge the Nazi's are just waiting for us to leave ..."oh well Jews - we gave ya few good years"
    Ya mean like how the founding fathers wanted it?  All this supposition by the right of how we've strayed from the foresights and goals of our founding fathers yet no one ever seems to mention this.
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    Post by alohafri Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:18 am

    The problem was "nation building". We should have pulled out the minute Bin Laden was killed. Fuck that crazy part of the world. Let them solve their own problems.
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    Post by SoxIlliniRob Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:03 pm

    sharpy wrote:True, except that we have been there for 20 yrs.  You'd think in that amount of time that they'd grow accustomed enough to the more western way of life that they'd not just cede their weapons and their government over to a bunch of theocratic lunatics.  I mean, those dudes just giving the country over to the Taliban have wifes and daughters in that country and will now have to accept their family having to abide by the new rule.




    You have to have a cause that you are willing to die for .. and clearly the men in Afghanistan, do not 

    That's my thinking.  At what point does it stop being Afghanistan and begins just being an extension of the US?  If we're permanently there, holding down order, then it's a US extension who is pretending to be Afghanistan.  People claim we've left all of this equipment for the Taliban, but we GAVE that shit to Afghanistan.  THEY gave it to the Taliban when they handed the country, and their rights, and their government over to the Taliban.  I'm ready for this to just be over, Tim.  And I know you are, because you were ready for it to be over from the minute we went into that place, as I recall.
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    Post by SoxIlliniRob Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:04 pm

    alohafri wrote:The problem was "nation building". We should have pulled out the minute Bin Laden was killed. Fuck that crazy part of the world. Let them solve their own problems.

    Pretty much.  I get the notion of trying to help them, but they cut and run as soon as we talk about leaving?  What was it all for?
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    Post by sharpy Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:40 pm

     I'm ready for this to just be over, Tim.  And I know you are, because you were ready for it to be over from the minute we went into that place, as I recall.




    Because you just knew how this was going to turn out ... I'm old enough to remember the end of Nam .. this is same thing - we go, half-ass it, and then leave.  I don't think the US can go in and make people live a certain way - that would be like the Afghan army coming to the US and trying to convince us that the Taliban way of doing things will work. Revolution and change has to come from within the country - from the people - not from a bunch of foreign soldiers.  I think it was David Halberstrom (sp?) who said about Nam - we lost b/c the other side had something to fight for... and we didn't.

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