Fanboy Central

For the Fanboys of the White Sox


    Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Share
    avatar
    SoxIlliniRob
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 51
    Location : Saint Charles, IL

    Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by SoxIlliniRob on Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:07 am

    It's been surprising to see how underplayed the gerrymandering case has been treated so far by the media.  They talk about it, but I think a pretty good argument can be made that this is the most important SCOTUS case in generations, decades or maybe a longer period of time.  Gerrymandering is the actual voter fraud and election rigging of our time.  It's unfair to folks of both parties, rather than just hurting one.  It allows leaders and politicians to choose their voters, rather than allowing voters to choose the leaders.

    This case is more important than the ACA decision, or any decision from the court about abortion or birth control or whatever else, because without fairly drawn districts and a one person=one vote system, we live in a fake government with fake leaders.  Abortion, ACA, gay rights, and all of the rest of it, needs to be decided and guided by a legislature that's been fairly elected.  Illinois can draw districts to ensure blue dominance.  Wisconsin and Pennsylvania can draw to ensure Red dominance even when more people vote blue.  

    Next up, one of these days, needs to be the unfairness of how electoral college votes are afforded.  A Wyoming voter has approximately 3.7x the electoral power as a voter in California.  California is afforded 1.39 electoral college votes per each of its 1 million occupants, whereby Wyoming is afforded 5.12 electoral votes per 1 million occupants.  

    California is a 55 electoral vote state.  Wyoming is a 3 electoral vote state.  California has 67 times as many in state population as Wyoming.  That said, if Wyoming receives 3 electoral votes, California ought to be receiving 200 electoral votes if we want to subscribe to a belief that one voter ought to have one vote.  Now, before someone tries making the argument that Cali is full of illegals and that much of their population is non-citizens, I'd say fine, base electoral college voting power on the number of citizens in a state.  In that case, California would still receive 150-190 electoral college votes for Wyoming's 3.  

    The same is likely the case in reverse.  I'll bet there's some small, blue state that's receiving an inordinate amount of electoral college power versus a larger, redder state.  it's not a blue vs. red thing.  It's a fairness thing.  A vote in Cali ought to equal a vote in Texas ought to equal a vote in Rhode Island.  Hopefully, they reconfigure the electoral college votes based upon state populations one of these days.  Not sure why this isn't being addressed by the ACLU under the argument of Cali not getting equal protection under the law and constitution.
    avatar
    SoxIlliniRob
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 51
    Location : Saint Charles, IL

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by SoxIlliniRob on Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:04 am

    I should have added that it would make good sense if we rejiggered and recalculated the electoral vote counts for each national election whereby we would afford 1 electoral vote to the state with the lowest population, and then afford all other state electorals according to a system that bases electoral votes on being a multiple of the lowest population state.  If that state is North Dakota, at 1 vote for 350,000 people, then a state of 3.5 million ought to get 10 votes, and a state with 7 million ought to get 20.  Shit, they could even afford partials, whereby a state with 525,000 people gets 1.5 electoral votes.  This way, all states are getting their appropriate pro-rata share of the votes, and each citizen is getting his fair voter value.   

    This all strikes me as pretty common sense, and for the life of me I cannot understand how this flies under the radar.
    avatar
    sharpy
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 95
    Join date : 2017-05-10

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by sharpy on Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:18 pm

    This all strikes me as pretty common sense, and for the life of me I cannot understand how this flies under the radar.

    I don't think its under the radar - I am sure all the politicians know exactly what is going on, and since the GOP is in full control of everything, its unlikely to change if congress has to be the ones to change it. Despite your optimism about the progressive nature of younger generations, its the old that are in charge in the vast majority of the states. Ohio is the poster child for this - house, senate, governor all GOP. Look at our district map, it looks like a jig-saw puzzle. No way the GOP loses any state election. Wait until Josh Mandel - the most VILE POS in politics, beats Brown next fall. Then we should all leave this country or start stumping for a catalonia type of election.  Not very , optimistic about the SCOTUS decision either tho its likely going to be up to Kennedy, who is at least practical. 
    avatar
    cream919
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 63
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Location : Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by cream919 on Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:15 am

    Ah yes...the Electoral College...better known as the one reason I will never vote in another presidential election as long as I live. 
    avatar
    alohafri
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 216
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 50
    Location : Between Sarah Michelle Gellar's Legs

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by alohafri on Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:09 am

    Mike Madigan and crew are really benefiting from gerrymandering. I don't see it changing in Illinois any time soon.
    avatar
    SoxIlliniRob
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 51
    Location : Saint Charles, IL

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by SoxIlliniRob on Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:11 am

    Mike Madigan and crew are really benefiting from gerrymandering. I don't see it changing in Illinois any time soon.



    Precisely, and it needs to stop the same way parties benefit from it in other states.  It's a denial of the one person, one vote approach, and it allows politicians to choose their voters, rather than the opposite.  If the SCOTUS votes to outlaw gerrymandering, Illinois will be forced to change.
    avatar
    alohafri
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 216
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 50
    Location : Between Sarah Michelle Gellar's Legs

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by alohafri on Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:19 am

    SoxIlliniRob wrote:Mike Madigan and crew are really benefiting from gerrymandering. I don't see it changing in Illinois any time soon.



    Precisely, and it needs to stop the same way parties benefit from it in other states.  It's a denial of the one person, one vote approach, and it allows politicians to choose their voters, rather than the opposite.  If the SCOTUS votes to outlaw gerrymandering, Illinois will be forced to change.

    I don't disagree with you. Conservative leaning Hinsdale and Burr Ridge are represented by liberal Mike Quigley...from Wrigleyville.

    frank bonifacic
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 70
    Join date : 2017-05-05

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by frank bonifacic on Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:35 am

    alohafri wrote:
    SoxIlliniRob wrote:Mike Madigan and crew are really benefiting from gerrymandering. I don't see it changing in Illinois any time soon.



    Precisely, and it needs to stop the same way parties benefit from it in other states.  It's a denial of the one person, one vote approach, and it allows politicians to choose their voters, rather than the opposite.  If the SCOTUS votes to outlaw gerrymandering, Illinois will be forced to change.

    I don't disagree with you. Conservative leaning Hinsdale and Burr Ridge are represented by liberal Mike Quigley...from Wrigleyville.
    If you really want to see gerrymandering, there is a reason that the case up there deals with Wisconsin. Voters slightly over 50% Dems, state reps 70+% Rep.
    avatar
    SoxIlliniRob
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 51
    Location : Saint Charles, IL

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by SoxIlliniRob on Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:19 am

    I recently saw a breakdown that showed that while Pennsylvania usually receives 51-53% of their votes for the House of Reps on Dem candidates, Pennsylvania is about 2/3 GOP congressmen and 1/3 Dems because of the way the districts are drawn.  I imagine there are blue states where it might be the same way in the other direction, but Pennsylvania is a mostly blue state that ends up being a red state because of this bullshit.
    avatar
    alohafri
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 216
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 50
    Location : Between Sarah Michelle Gellar's Legs

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by alohafri on Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:29 am

    I'm going to "pull a Todd" and say that if this (gerrymandering and the Electoral College) are gone in my life time, I'll eat my head.

    frank bonifacic
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 70
    Join date : 2017-05-05

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by frank bonifacic on Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:32 am

    alohafri wrote:I'm going to "pull a Todd" and say that if this (gerrymandering and the Electoral College) are gone in my life time, I'll eat my head.
    Which??
    avatar
    alohafri
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 216
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 50
    Location : Between Sarah Michelle Gellar's Legs

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by alohafri on Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:41 am

    frank bonifacic wrote:
    alohafri wrote:I'm going to "pull a Todd" and say that if this (gerrymandering and the Electoral College) are gone in my life time, I'll eat my head.
    Which??

    Hmmmm... scratch Good question.
    avatar
    SoxIlliniRob
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 51
    Location : Saint Charles, IL

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by SoxIlliniRob on Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:53 am

    I don't see Electoral College going away, unless another 7 or 8 blue states pass legislation to bypass it.  It could happen, but it isn't likely.  

    My points about Electoral college are only that they ought to proportionately award electoral votes in a way that ensure that one person = one vote and ensures that your vote is worth as much as a vote in New York, Texas, Wyoming or Alaska.  There's no defensible reason for a Wyoming vote to be worth provably 3.7 times as much as a vote in California.
    avatar
    alohafri
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 216
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 50
    Location : Between Sarah Michelle Gellar's Legs

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by alohafri on Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:52 am

    SoxIlliniRob wrote:I don't see Electoral College going away, unless another 7 or 8 blue states pass legislation to bypass it.  It could happen, but it isn't likely.  

    My points about Electoral college are only that they ought to proportionately award electoral votes in a way that ensure that one person = one vote and ensures that your vote is worth as much as a vote in New York, Texas, Wyoming or Alaska.  There's no defensible reason for a Wyoming vote to be worth provably 3.7 times as much as a vote in California.

    On the other hand, why should the people in Wyoming even bother to vote if they only have 3 votes to Cali's 54?
    avatar
    SoxIlliniRob
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 51
    Location : Saint Charles, IL

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by SoxIlliniRob on Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:57 am

    alohafri wrote:
    SoxIlliniRob wrote:I don't see Electoral College going away, unless another 7 or 8 blue states pass legislation to bypass it.  It could happen, but it isn't likely.  

    My points about Electoral college are only that they ought to proportionately award electoral votes in a way that ensure that one person = one vote and ensures that your vote is worth as much as a vote in New York, Texas, Wyoming or Alaska.  There's no defensible reason for a Wyoming vote to be worth provably 3.7 times as much as a vote in California.

    On the other hand, why should the people in Wyoming even bother to vote if they only have 3 votes to Cali's 54?
     
    Easy.  Because they have a 75 times larger chance of that vote mattering in the ultimate assigning of electoral votes than someone voting in a state with 35 million people.  

    Their ratio of electoral share per voter is 3.7 times that of a person in California.  If anything, the question you're asking ought to be reversed, i.e. why should someone in Cali vote if their vote is almost 4 times less valuable than a Wyoming vote?
    avatar
    alohafri
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 216
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 50
    Location : Between Sarah Michelle Gellar's Legs

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by alohafri on Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:02 pm

    SoxIlliniRob wrote:
    alohafri wrote:
    SoxIlliniRob wrote:I don't see Electoral College going away, unless another 7 or 8 blue states pass legislation to bypass it.  It could happen, but it isn't likely.  

    My points about Electoral college are only that they ought to proportionately award electoral votes in a way that ensure that one person = one vote and ensures that your vote is worth as much as a vote in New York, Texas, Wyoming or Alaska.  There's no defensible reason for a Wyoming vote to be worth provably 3.7 times as much as a vote in California.

    On the other hand, why should the people in Wyoming even bother to vote if they only have 3 votes to Cali's 54?
     
    Easy.  Because they have a 75 times larger chance of that vote mattering in the ultimate assigning of electoral votes than someone voting in a state with 35 million people.  

    Their ratio of electoral share per voter is 3.7 times that of a person in California.  If anything, the question you're asking ought to be reversed, i.e. why should someone in Cali vote if their vote is almost 4 times less valuable than a Wyoming vote?

    I'm not talking individual votes here. I'm talking Electoral College. California represents 10% of the electoral college. Wyoming represents .5% of the electoral college. Wyoming's votes don't matter as much as California's votes.
    avatar
    SoxIlliniRob
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 51
    Location : Saint Charles, IL

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by SoxIlliniRob on Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:06 pm

    alohafri wrote:

     
    Easy.  Because they have a 75 times larger chance of that vote mattering in the ultimate assigning of electoral votes than someone voting in a state with 35 million people.  

    Their ratio of electoral share per voter is 3.7 times that of a person in California.  If anything, the question you're asking ought to be reversed, i.e. why should someone in Cali vote if their vote is almost 4 times less valuable than a Wyoming vote?

    I'm not talking individual votes here. I'm talking Electoral College. California represents 10% of the electoral college. Wyoming represents .5% of the electoral college. Wyoming's votes don't matter as much as California's votes.

    Come on.  You're a smart enough guy.  Wyoming's votes are worth more per person.  Yeah, maybe Wyoming's folks feel smothered by the power of the Cali vote, but there are a lot of little Wyomings out there, called S. Dakota, and N. Dakota, and Utah and Idaho and others.  And as a group, they get to overpower Cali by having far greater per-person voter strength than the larger states. I'll put some state comparisons in the next post on this.
    avatar
    SoxIlliniRob
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 51
    Location : Saint Charles, IL

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by SoxIlliniRob on Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:12 pm

    States are awarded electoral college votes according to population.  

    California gets 1 electoral vote for every 713,000 inhabitants
    Texas gets 1 electoral vote for every 738,000 inhabitants
    Hawaii gets 1 for every 340,000 inhabitants
    Alaska gets 1 for every 237k inhabitants
    Wyoming gets 1 for every 187k inhabitants
    Florida gets 1 for every 696k inhabitants
    Illinois gets 1 for every 609k inhabitants
    Rhode Island gets 1 for every 262,000 inhabitants.

    Why is a voter in Rhode Island being given three times the voting power of a voter in California or Texas?  Why penalize a Texan for living in a large state?  Why reward a RI voter for living in a less populated state?  Shouldn't all of our votes have an equal pro-rated value toward the overall electoral college voting system?  I can't imagine an argument as to why we shouldn't be a one person/one vote country.  I'm not even arguing against the electoral college system.  I assume it's going nowhere, but there's no explanation for why smaller state inhabitants ought to have 3 times the voting power of large state voters.
    avatar
    alohafri
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 216
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 50
    Location : Between Sarah Michelle Gellar's Legs

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by alohafri on Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:19 pm

    It is possible to win the presidency by winning only 11 states. Is it likely? Probably not, but still possible.


    We are arguing semantics here. Both of these are reasons why the Electoral College probably needs to go. As I have argued all along, I don't see it happening, however.
    avatar
    SoxIlliniRob
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 51
    Location : Saint Charles, IL

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by SoxIlliniRob on Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:30 pm

    I don't see it leaving, but we could try applying it fairly so that our votes matter equally.
    avatar
    SoxIlliniRob
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 51
    Location : Saint Charles, IL

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by SoxIlliniRob on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:03 pm

    alohafri wrote:It is possible to win the presidency by winning only 11 states. Is it likely? Probably not, but still possible.


    If this happens, I'm probably ok with it, assuming that the 11 states constitute about half or more than half of our nation's population. 
    avatar
    alohafri
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 216
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 50
    Location : Between Sarah Michelle Gellar's Legs

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by alohafri on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:08 pm

    SoxIlliniRob wrote:
    alohafri wrote:It is possible to win the presidency by winning only 11 states. Is it likely? Probably not, but still possible.


    If this happens, I'm probably ok with it, assuming that the 11 states constitute about half or more than half of our nation's population. 

    The Electoral College elects the president, not the people. It doesn't matter how much of the population votes for a candidate if that candidate isn't chosen by the Electoral College.
    avatar
    SoxIlliniRob
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 51
    Location : Saint Charles, IL

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by SoxIlliniRob on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:25 pm

    alohafri wrote:
    SoxIlliniRob wrote:
    alohafri wrote:It is possible to win the presidency by winning only 11 states. Is it likely? Probably not, but still possible.


    If this happens, I'm probably ok with it, assuming that the 11 states constitute about half or more than half of our nation's population. 

    The Electoral College elects the president, not the people. It doesn't matter how much of the population votes for a candidate if that candidate isn't chosen by the Electoral College.
     
    Understood.  We all get that.  My point is only that I'd hope that if the Electoral College is electing the president, then the states that won those electorals at least represent a fair percentage of the population.  I understand that you can win an election with a minority of the votes, but the states whose electorals make you president should still represent a majority of the population.  If you appropriately give proportional electoral college value to each state, based on its population, then you could still have elections that are won by a Trump or a Bush, despite garnering the popular vote, but at least you'll be giving each voter an equal amount of electoral college voting strength, which we do not currently have.  The electoral college voting strength is all in the smaller states.
    avatar
    SoxIlliniRob
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 51
    Location : Saint Charles, IL

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by SoxIlliniRob on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:36 pm

    Kevin, where you note that one could win the election with 11 winning states, at least those states would constitute 56% of our population if such an odd occurrence were to happen.  One could also win with only winning the other 39 states, and if that were to occur, they'd have won with the electoral college votes of the states that comprise only 44% of our population.  

    Bare minimum, if we end up deadlocked with each candidate having 270 electoral college votes, then the population of the states that each candidate won should be approximately the same.  Even in that case, one candidate could still very much have won the overall popular vote by many million votes, but the 270 electoral votes ought to come from states that equate to half of our population.
    avatar
    SoxIlliniRob
    Not a Fanboy

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2017-05-05
    Age : 51
    Location : Saint Charles, IL

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by SoxIlliniRob on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:45 pm

    Perhaps a better way to make my point is to note that Cali gets 55 electoral college votes for 37 million people.  There are also 55 electoral votes if I add the states of ID, MT, ND, HI, AK, UT, NM, OK, KS, MS, NH, and RI.  Those states combine for 22 million in population.  Why do those 22 million get more voting power than Californians?  Or more than Texans?  Or Floridians?  Or more than any medium sized state?

    Sponsored content

    Re: Gerrymandering and our fucked up electoral college

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:33 am